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  1. #1
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    Hi, all.

    Now that my Imperial City Crime campaign is getting into the
    domain-ruling aspect, I`m wanting to get back into my ideas for a
    revamped generic domain ruling system.

    The first obstacle I currently have though, is figuring out how
    prosperous various centers of production are. For example, how much more
    prosperous is a small town than a villiage? 3 times? 15 times?

    Someone hit on something recently by saying perhaps province level
    wasn`t about population level, but instead about urban productivity. The
    reasoning was that only urban centers produced disposable income for
    trade and leisure, therefore only urban centers were important, leaving
    rural villiages and agriculture out of the picture. Is this viable? If
    so, then what would be the numbers by which to measure this urban
    prosperity?

    With this out of the way, I will be able to churn out the rest fairly
    quickly. I`d like any refences to online resources that would help,
    also. Thanks.

    --
    / Adam Theo, Age 22, Tallahassee FL USA
    // Email & Jabber: theo@theoretic.com
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  2. #2
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    On Wed, 2002-05-15 at 14:19, Adam Theo wrote:
    > Hi, all.
    >
    > Now that my Imperial City Crime campaign is getting into the
    > domain-ruling aspect, I`m wanting to get back into my ideas for a
    > revamped generic domain ruling system.
    >
    > The first obstacle I currently have though, is figuring out how
    > prosperous various centers of production are. For example, how much more
    > prosperous is a small town than a villiage? 3 times? 15 times?
    >
    > Someone hit on something recently by saying perhaps province level
    > wasn`t about population level, but instead about urban productivity. The
    > reasoning was that only urban centers produced disposable income for
    > trade and leisure, therefore only urban centers were important, leaving
    > rural villiages and agriculture out of the picture. Is this viable? If
    > so, then what would be the numbers by which to measure this urban
    > prosperity?

    Firstly, the province levels are about both population and province
    development. These two are inextricably related however, and any system
    that tries to separate them out will gain in complexity out of
    proportion to any benefit in game play. Read page 33 of the rulebook
    again (on "Provinces"), and remember that there are guidelines about how
    many holdings can be present in a province of level "x" while you do.

    The short answer for the question of the first paragraph is(according to
    the guidelines) about double. (2 holdings, 2 trade routes instead of 1)
    The point being that it`s already taken into account.

    The long answer is that the population values are linear - and that the
    income values are a bit on the suspect side taking into account all
    factors. So it`s not perfect ... but what is the cost of doing "better"?

    The question of what is the dependent variable and what is the
    independent variable, and what other factors should be taken into
    account is pretty well held up by reading the rest of the rulebook. The
    province values are used as population values in all other contexts - so
    this would indicate that province development is dependent on population
    value. This was also held up by discussion: A province with a population
    level of 10 cannot be in development 1 (or 0) - nomadic cultures do not
    allow for high populations - urban development is required. The converse
    also holds - a population of development level 10 but with a population
    level of 0 is not significantly different in output from a population
    level of 0 development 0. In the scale of BR provinces - how significant
    can the difference get ? - and the answer is : probably not enough to
    worry about. Still for verisimilitude adding an extra variable/feature
    is not an heinous crime.

    >
    > With this out of the way, I will be able to churn out the rest fairly
    > quickly. I`d like any refences to online resources that would help,
    > also. Thanks.
    >

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  3. #3
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    My apologies. I did mean that I was not tying myself to the rulebook or
    current BR rules. This is an attempt to "start fresh" and create
    something generic, that could be applied to many different settings with
    different population levels.

    Peter Lubke wrote:
    > Firstly, the province levels are about both population and province
    > development. These two are inextricably related however, and any system
    > that tries to separate them out will gain in complexity out of
    > proportion to any benefit in game play. Read page 33 of the rulebook
    > again (on "Provinces"), and remember that there are guidelines about how
    > many holdings can be present in a province of level "x" while you do.
    >
    > The short answer for the question of the first paragraph is(according to
    > the guidelines) about double. (2 holdings, 2 trade routes instead of 1)
    > The point being that it`s already taken into account.
    >
    > The long answer is that the population values are linear - and that the
    > income values are a bit on the suspect side taking into account all
    > factors. So it`s not perfect ... but what is the cost of doing "better"?
    >
    > The question of what is the dependent variable and what is the
    > independent variable, and what other factors should be taken into
    > account is pretty well held up by reading the rest of the rulebook. The
    > province values are used as population values in all other contexts - so
    > this would indicate that province development is dependent on population
    > value. This was also held up by discussion: A province with a population
    > level of 10 cannot be in development 1 (or 0) - nomadic cultures do not
    > allow for high populations - urban development is required. The converse
    > also holds - a population of development level 10 but with a population
    > level of 0 is not significantly different in output from a population
    > level of 0 development 0. In the scale of BR provinces - how significant
    > can the difference get ? - and the answer is : probably not enough to
    > worry about. Still for verisimilitude adding an extra variable/feature
    > is not an heinous crime.


    --
    / Adam Theo, Age 22, Tallahassee FL USA
    // Email & Jabber: theo@theoretic.com
    // (Boycotting AOL, therefore no AIM or ICQ)
    =//===== Theoretic Solutions: http://www.theoretic.com
    // || "Bringing Ideas Together"
    || Jabber Protocol: http://www.jabber.org
    || "The Coolest IM on the Planet"
    || "A Free-Market Socialist Patriotic American
    || Buddhist Political Philosopher."

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  4. #4
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    T`was I who spake thus, and proclaimed changes in province levels to be
    about improvements in development and prosperity, reasoning that all
    provinces are already (after 1500 years) at their sustainable maximums
    already.

    Lets consider a small village of 200 people. About 180 (give or take) are
    famers. They make about 2/3`s of a sp per day, or 20sp a month. Just below
    what a laborer can earn, but with steady employment and the last to go
    hungry in bad times. Farmers are also mostly self-sufficient and not so
    much in the cash economy, so will be less valuable for guild income. Let`s
    call them worth half. BTW, there are about 50 adult men, 40 adult women,
    and 90 children.

    180 people worth 10 sp a month in guild activity comes to 180gp a month as
    income (18gp-90gp after most costs, not all costs can be considered until
    realm turns figure domain maintenence, court costs, lieutenants, &c). Its
    those other 20 people in town that really make a difference. Lets start
    off with a single knight who is lord of the village, manor, or whatever
    there is here. He may still have rights as lord of the people, or maybe
    not, but he has the wealth of a knight. His monthly income is between 80
    and 160 gp per month, and he`s far and away the villages largest consumer of
    luxury goods, though he purchases very few common goods. He collects taxes
    on his estate which supplies his table, he hunts for meat, and so forth. He
    may also be (for some extra gp) a minor official in some higher noble`s
    payroll. It really doesn`t matter if the knight is married and has a family
    because his income remains based on his estate.

    So 180 peasants or yeoman give us 180 gp of guild income, and the knight
    gives us 80-160 by himself. There are 19 other folks in town. Five are
    clergy. Let`s say that we have one 2nd (or 3rd) level priest, two first
    level priests, and some split 1st level experts/clerics, who can cast
    0-level spells. These local priests may have some additional levels of
    expert too. These guys collect a tithe worth a bit more than the knight`s
    feudal tax. The acolytes are probvided with no less than 30 gp worth of
    goods, the 1st level priests more like 45 gp, and their leader, more like
    60. As a group, call it 210 gp, and recall that much of this isn`t payroll,
    but includes the expences of being a priest, incense, chalicies, repairs to
    the tapestry of Ruornil, what have you.

    So, 180 peasants, 180 gp, a knight 80-160 gp, 5 priests 210 gp.

    In order to serve the needs of the town, the knight, and the priests, the
    town will have some craftsfolk. We have 13 people left over. Let`s add a
    squire, the priests pay him to guard their little shrine when they
    pillgrimage to the town. This guy`s income comes mostly from the noble, and
    some from the priests. Since we add him on top of those guys their incomes
    must be enough to support him in addition to their own expences. He makes
    15 gp per month, much of it paid in kind. Town needs a shoemaker, one of
    the most common occupations. He makes 1 sp per day, that`s 3 gp per month.
    Let`s assume he has a wife and son, and that the 3 of them do some farming
    too, counting as 2 farmers and 1 showmaker. It gets cold during winter, and
    people hunt, so we have a furrier who may sideline as a tanner as well. He
    makes more as a furrier (2 sp) than he does as a tanner (1sp), let`s say he
    makes 5 gp in a month. If he has a family, and he probabaly does, they are
    farming.

    Recap. 180 peasants, 180 gp, knight figure 120 gp, 5 priests 210 gp, a
    squire 15 gp, shoemaker 3 gp, furrier 5 gp. Note that nearly everyone after
    this is going to earn 3gp a month or more. The peasant makes 2 gp a month,
    and most of that is food, so they only count for 1 gp. Its the crafts
    people where your money really is for guild purposes. For realm tax time,
    just double the value of your peasants.

    We still have 11 villagers. Lets call them a tailor 2 gp (who makes for
    many, repairs only for noble and cleric), his wife the weaver 1 gp, a barber
    2 gp, a tavernkeeper 2 gp, a chandler 2 gp, a mason 3 gp, a carpenter 3 gp,
    and over at the knight`s keep we have a clerk 3 gp, stable boy 1.5 gp, a
    general smith 3 gp, and a miller 3 gp.

    Once more 180 peasants 180 gp, 7 town elite 345 gp, 13 townspeople 33.5 gp.

    Imagine a town where the proportion of townspeople is bigger. Where we go
    from primary crafts (shoemaker &c) to secondary crafts (goldsmith) who
    primarily serve other craftsmen and the elite and don`t need to rely on
    common peolpe as customers. At a larger town we might add a jeweler, who
    cuts gems, works in silver, and even does a little gold work. In a larger
    town the gem cutter is one guy, and we have a silver smith who does a little
    more gold work. In a big town you may have five jewelers, two silver smiths
    who aim at a common market, one who aims at a high market, and a goldsmith.

    Towns will concentrate the wealth of the countryside, and big towns will
    concentrate the wealth of a province or two. A city like Anuire is a huge
    magnet for certain kinds of wealth concentrations. Probabaly much like late
    medieval Rome, little industry, but plenty of luxury goods. The imperial
    capital doesn`t need 2000 plows this year, but it may need 200 tapestries.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  5. #5
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    Thanks, Kenneth. I had a sneaking suspicion it was you who proposed the
    urban-based levels :-)

    Thanks tremendously on the run-down. It helps me understand the size of
    the eleite in the smaller towns and villages. But still wondering about
    the measurements for scaling from and to villages, manors, towns,
    cities, and huge cities. If a village as you describe could be called a
    level 2 area, what would a city the size of the Free City of Ilien be? A
    20? A 40? And then what about the City of Anuire or Proudglaive in
    Roesone? Or for closer to your campaign`s home, Kennth, the capital city
    of Cariele?

    I have a basic outline of my thoughts here:
    http://www.theoretic.com/?Domains but it is still crude and needs
    revisioning. It is also a Wiki, meaning anyone can edit the page to
    change anything they want. Anyone here should feel free to change the
    page. I can roll back any changes I don`t like, so no worries about
    destroying anything. Follow the "Edit this Page" link near the top,
    using the "Formatting Rules" link for examples.

    Thanks, all.

    Kenneth Gauck wrote:
    > T`was I who spake thus, and proclaimed changes in province levels to be
    > about improvements in development and prosperity, reasoning that all
    > provinces are already (after 1500 years) at their sustainable maximums
    > already.
    >
    > Lets consider a small village of 200 people. About 180 (give or take) are
    > famers. They make about 2/3`s of a sp per day, or 20sp a month. Just below
    > what a laborer can earn, but with steady employment and the last to go
    > hungry in bad times. Farmers are also mostly self-sufficient and not so
    > much in the cash economy, so will be less valuable for guild income. Let`s
    > call them worth half. BTW, there are about 50 adult men, 40 adult women,
    > and 90 children.
    >
    > 180 people worth 10 sp a month in guild activity comes to 180gp a month as
    > income (18gp-90gp after most costs, not all costs can be considered until
    > realm turns figure domain maintenence, court costs, lieutenants, &c). Its
    > those other 20 people in town that really make a difference. Lets start
    > off with a single knight who is lord of the village, manor, or whatever
    > there is here. He may still have rights as lord of the people, or maybe
    > not, but he has the wealth of a knight. His monthly income is between 80
    > and 160 gp per month, and he`s far and away the villages largest consumer of
    > luxury goods, though he purchases very few common goods. He collects taxes
    > on his estate which supplies his table, he hunts for meat, and so forth. He
    > may also be (for some extra gp) a minor official in some higher noble`s
    > payroll. It really doesn`t matter if the knight is married and has a family
    > because his income remains based on his estate.
    >
    > So 180 peasants or yeoman give us 180 gp of guild income, and the knight
    > gives us 80-160 by himself. There are 19 other folks in town. Five are
    > clergy. Let`s say that we have one 2nd (or 3rd) level priest, two first
    > level priests, and some split 1st level experts/clerics, who can cast
    > 0-level spells. These local priests may have some additional levels of
    > expert too. These guys collect a tithe worth a bit more than the knight`s
    > feudal tax. The acolytes are probvided with no less than 30 gp worth of
    > goods, the 1st level priests more like 45 gp, and their leader, more like
    > 60. As a group, call it 210 gp, and recall that much of this isn`t payroll,
    > but includes the expences of being a priest, incense, chalicies, repairs to
    > the tapestry of Ruornil, what have you.
    >
    > So, 180 peasants, 180 gp, a knight 80-160 gp, 5 priests 210 gp.
    >
    > In order to serve the needs of the town, the knight, and the priests, the
    > town will have some craftsfolk. We have 13 people left over. Let`s add a
    > squire, the priests pay him to guard their little shrine when they
    > pillgrimage to the town. This guy`s income comes mostly from the noble, and
    > some from the priests. Since we add him on top of those guys their incomes
    > must be enough to support him in addition to their own expences. He makes
    > 15 gp per month, much of it paid in kind. Town needs a shoemaker, one of
    > the most common occupations. He makes 1 sp per day, that`s 3 gp per month.
    > Let`s assume he has a wife and son, and that the 3 of them do some farming
    > too, counting as 2 farmers and 1 showmaker. It gets cold during winter, and
    > people hunt, so we have a furrier who may sideline as a tanner as well. He
    > makes more as a furrier (2 sp) than he does as a tanner (1sp), let`s say he
    > makes 5 gp in a month. If he has a family, and he probabaly does, they are
    > farming.
    >
    > Recap. 180 peasants, 180 gp, knight figure 120 gp, 5 priests 210 gp, a
    > squire 15 gp, shoemaker 3 gp, furrier 5 gp. Note that nearly everyone after
    > this is going to earn 3gp a month or more. The peasant makes 2 gp a month,
    > and most of that is food, so they only count for 1 gp. Its the crafts
    > people where your money really is for guild purposes. For realm tax time,
    > just double the value of your peasants.
    >
    > We still have 11 villagers. Lets call them a tailor 2 gp (who makes for
    > many, repairs only for noble and cleric), his wife the weaver 1 gp, a barber
    > 2 gp, a tavernkeeper 2 gp, a chandler 2 gp, a mason 3 gp, a carpenter 3 gp,
    > and over at the knight`s keep we have a clerk 3 gp, stable boy 1.5 gp, a
    > general smith 3 gp, and a miller 3 gp.
    >
    > Once more 180 peasants 180 gp, 7 town elite 345 gp, 13 townspeople 33.5 gp.
    >
    > Imagine a town where the proportion of townspeople is bigger. Where we go
    > from primary crafts (shoemaker &c) to secondary crafts (goldsmith) who
    > primarily serve other craftsmen and the elite and don`t need to rely on
    > common peolpe as customers. At a larger town we might add a jeweler, who
    > cuts gems, works in silver, and even does a little gold work. In a larger
    > town the gem cutter is one guy, and we have a silver smith who does a little
    > more gold work. In a big town you may have five jewelers, two silver smiths
    > who aim at a common market, one who aims at a high market, and a goldsmith.
    >
    > Towns will concentrate the wealth of the countryside, and big towns will
    > concentrate the wealth of a province or two. A city like Anuire is a huge
    > magnet for certain kinds of wealth concentrations. Probabaly much like late
    > medieval Rome, little industry, but plenty of luxury goods. The imperial
    > capital doesn`t need 2000 plows this year, but it may need 200 tapestries.
    >
    > Kenneth Gauck
    > kgauck@mchsi.com
    >
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    --
    / Adam Theo, Age 22, Tallahassee FL USA
    // Email & Jabber: theo@theoretic.com
    // (Boycotting AOL, therefore no AIM or ICQ)
    =//===== Theoretic Solutions: http://www.theoretic.com
    // || "Bringing Ideas Together"
    || Jabber Protocol: http://www.jabber.org
    || "The Coolest IM on the Planet"
    || "A Free-Market Socialist Patriotic American
    || Buddhist Political Philosopher."

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  6. #6
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Lets do Hollingholmen (capital of Stjordvik), the Free City of Ilien, and
    the Imperial City of Anuire.

    I abandon the rule book values (although I find that multiplying x5 them
    works well) and look only at the probable maximum population per terrain.
    Populations can exceed that value, but the effect of those additional people
    will be to consume the surplus.

    Stjordvik has around 191,500 people (and will have 1340 more next year).
    The province of Ustkjuvil has around 46,600. I assign Rjurik only 75%
    effeciency because of climate and technology. So, proportionally more
    people are engaged in subsistance than are in Anuire. The total urban
    population (towns not composed mostly of farmers as in our village example)
    is around 17,200.

    This population density is only 36 people per square mile which is about the
    same as medieval Poland, and almost ten times higher than medieval
    Scandinavia. Its about a third the population density of Anuire. About a
    quarter of the land is farmed, and about half of that is good land producing
    2/3 of the food. Someplace like Hogunmark will produce population densities
    more like historical Scandinavia.

    The bustiling city of Hollingholmen has 5250 people. About half of them are
    actual city people. The other half include fishermen and other sailors, and
    those who engage in some urban activity part time, and own and work land
    outside the city part of the time.

    The urban half of the population serves all of Stjordvik for a small number
    of key services. The Eorl is here, and the Chancery, and the headquarters
    of the Emerald Spire, the Oaken Grove, Three Trees Traders, Stjordvik
    Traders, and so forth. Headquarters means scribes. A lot of the writing
    and recording of the whole realm`s business gets done here.

    You may have noticed that my numbers are pretty close to those arrived at
    with S. John Ross` "Demographics Made Easy". Marcus L. Hulings converted
    his statistics into an Excel format. S. John`s numbers are pretty good,
    highly flexible, and pretty accurate. Because they come in Excel so I can
    let my computer do the math, I definatly use them. Further more, I can
    change some of the assumptions and alter the results. For example,
    calculations of crafts and services available assume an even distribution of
    services. Fine if you are just making up a little town for a base for
    standard adventurers, but not if you are thinking in terms of a whole realm.

    Take gold smiths. Gold smiths will settle one of two places. Near patrons,
    or near gold. You won`t find them even distributed, because neither gold
    nor patrons are evenly distributed. Consider, a gold smith will expect to
    earn between 6-10 sp a day. That means he expects to earn 18-30 gp a month.
    That means that he has customers spending a minimum of 40-60 gp a month on
    gold work. And 40-60 is a low estimate. Where can a gold smith expect
    enough customers to reliably get 40 to 60 gp worth of business a month? A
    pound of silver costs 5 gp, a one pound silver holy symbol costs 25 gp. If
    a pound of gold costs 50 gp, does a one pound holy symbol cost 70 gp or 250
    gp? Workmanship equal to the silver costs 20 gp in labor. You could get
    that done in gold, but for most purchases, the 250 gp is more accurate. A
    gold smith could get by with a 250 gp sale once every three months. But
    where are people buying gold holy symbols? Not at every shrine or small
    town temple. He needs to find the richest of the clerics. They gather at
    the regional temple headquarters. Likewise a great noble might be able to
    regularly supply work at that level. Perhaps the Eorl of Saerskap has his
    own goldsmith. Such a smith would also handle all the gold smithing in
    Arvaald, Hjorvaal, Lofkirdik, and Udvika.

    So, I figure that some occupations are distributed evenly. This is the kind
    of occupation where everyone will use the service. Shoemaker is the obvious
    winner. Hard to make shoes in the home, but everyone needs at least one
    pair. The rich may want more shoes, or better shoes, but everyone has a
    need for shoes. Scribes are a different story. Not everyone needs one, but
    you can figure that for every group of people someone needs a scribe,
    whether a noble, or a wizard, what have you. If you go back to the origin
    of writing, people mostly took inventory. The local knight needs to know
    how many bundles of oats and rye were stored in his keep. He wants to
    compare from year to year. He may have need to send a letter to his lord.
    But at a headquarters place, the needs of writing are much greater. In
    Hollingholmen they may also want local information. Not so local as every
    knight, but more so than just local in Hollingholmen. They generally get
    summaries. Our knight might write a letter to his lord, but that lord not
    only writes back, but writes to the Eorl, and to his other lords. Local
    people talk to one another, at a distance people write to one another.
    Scribes of this kind are probabaly multi-class Bards and Experts. When I
    consider this group, I think that half are distributed evenly, a quarter are
    clustered in provincial headquarters (attached to holdings), and the last
    quarter are in realm headquarters. The final group are like goldsmiths. I
    consider the whole realm and distribute them in very few places.

    So for example, where S. John would put 21 maids in Hollingholmen, I would
    put 247 maids there. All 21 maids for the city`s needs, 40 maids for the
    rest of the province actually are in the capital, and 186 maids for the
    whole realm are actually in the capital. Because the people most likely to
    employ maids are most likely to be in the capital, at least part of the
    time. Consider our goldsmith. Does he have a maid? Very likely he does.

    I`ll add more after lunch.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  7. #7
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    On Thu, 2002-05-16 at 00:50, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
    > T`was I who spake thus, and proclaimed changes in province levels to be
    > about improvements in development and prosperity, reasoning that all
    > provinces are already (after 1500 years) at their sustainable maximums
    > already.
    >
    >
    <<SNIP>>
    >
    > Towns will concentrate the wealth of the countryside, and big towns will
    > concentrate the wealth of a province or two. A city like Anuire is a huge
    > magnet for certain kinds of wealth concentrations. Probabaly much like late
    > medieval Rome, little industry, but plenty of luxury goods. The imperial
    > capital doesn`t need 2000 plows this year, but it may need 200 tapestries.

    Yes, Yes Ken - agreed more or less, I think even the rulebook would be
    in agreement. How should/would this affect the income table in your
    opinion ?

    Currently a level 10 province generates 2d8+2 (moderate taxes). This is
    quite a spread, far too much in my opinion - that level of uncertainty
    at this level of collection is not called for. Still it`s 4-18 GB and an
    average of 11 GB.

    A level 7 province generates 1d8+1, or 2-9, average 5.5 GB, which is
    about half that of the level 10. And a level 4, 1d4+1 (2-5) 3.5 GB
    around 75% of the level 7. Level 1 generates 1d3-1 GB (on average only
    1GB) - so the big leap is from small towns, rural areas to settled
    farmlands with small industries at a ratio of 3.5:1. The more densely
    settled areas with well developed industries can improve up to 3:1 over
    those. (from 3.5GB to 11GB - as averages)

    I do think that as a province generates more wealth, it also consumes
    more - large urban centers tend to be big consumers as well, leading to
    higher levels of lifestyle but not necessarily generating more than a
    linear increase in disposable revenues for the regents.

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  8. #8
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Stjordivik, then has inefficient agriculture, one major city (Hollingholm)
    and four other towns. Hollingholm is a port, and so is a distribution point
    both in and out for the other four towns, and the realm as a whole. It is
    the capital of most realms that operate in Stjordvik, and so will be a
    center of higher order economic activity founded upon a base less developed
    than elsewhere.

    If agriculture is only 75% as effecient as Anuirean agriculture, the Rjurik
    have to add a third more labor to get the same result. And in part they
    must add labor, reducing the surplus labor that could go toward the more
    profitable crafts. But in part, the Rjurk can also substitute less
    palatable food which is more abundant. The Scottish made well enough with
    fish, oats, and milk as a diet, the Rjurik probabaly have a similar diet at
    the bottom of their economic pyramid.

    To reflect this, I reduced the town population by 75% (same as the
    productivity of Rjurik agriculture) and the city population by 12.5% (no
    matter how poor, you always have someone there to tell you what to do).

    I really haven`t altered the number of craftsmen, but I would adjust for
    their incomes. Anuirean shoemakers are wealthier than Rjurik shoemakers
    because their clients are wealthier and buy better shoes.

    So, when I would go through Holingholm assigning everyone incomes (just as I
    did with the village) I would not always match up to table 5-2 in the DMG.

    Looking over the numbers of services offered, I would estimate that there
    are 400 different shingles hanging out over stores, and that most of them
    represent four to five people. These people include a master craftsman, one
    to three apprentices, a spouse, and children who may or may not be formal
    apprentices. Often times, the husband is the craftsman, but the wife runs
    the customer service end of the business and handles the money. So while he
    has Craft and Profession skills, she has more people skills. This can, of
    course, be reversed in a fantasy campaign.

    So, on to Ilien. Much better climate and technical situation here. By my
    calculation, Ilien has 900 square miles of land. If I assume that the
    province level squared times five thousand is the population of the
    privince, I get 245,000. Now, while that works out to 272 people per square
    mile, that`s not out of bounds if most of them are in the city. It does
    mean that 40% of their food has to be found outside the land of Ilien.
    Presumably fishing can contribute a large part of that, but the provinces of
    Braeme, Caerwil, and Duerlin probabaly export meat and grain as well. Its
    almost certain that all meat is imported to Ilien. Its probabaly also true
    that they can afford it.

    Dense agricultural population reaches 160 people per square mile, and this
    probably holds for all Ilien except for that small part of the Erbannien.
    That would make 124,000 people in rural Ilien. Put another 2500 in the
    woods. That`s 118,500 in the city itself, a very typical large medieval
    city. Most medieval cities topped off at 50,000, but Paris, for instance
    got up to 200,000. Italian cities are our best analog, and they got to
    100,000. So there it is.

    As we try to estimate the catchment area of Ilien for goods and services
    beyond the territry of the city, we see Endier to the west, and Diemed has
    nice cities in Moere and Ciliene. So, Ilien can`t be a source of trade to
    anything west of Medoere. As things stand, el-Hadid controls all of the
    trade comming in and out of Ilien, so merchants hostile to el-Hadid won`t
    want to extend the reach of his products. Naturally (going just by the
    placement of other cities) Ilien should dominate Medoere and Roesone. Guild
    conflicts that tend to disrupt this will hurt Ilien and the customers who
    are forced to pay more because goods are shipped from farther away. If
    Kalien won`t let goods from Ilien into Caerwil (in such a way that neither
    guild benefits nor is harmed- ie no game effect) the people of Caerwil are
    paying more for some goods. Because el-Hadid deals mostly in Khinasi
    products, its hard not to deal with him.

    Next - Anurie City

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  9. #9
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    The City of Anuire is rated a 10 province, despite being just a city. There
    are two basic interpretations of this rating. The first is that the city is
    a great production center. Normally production centers are near their
    consumers. This would imply that maybe the provinces of Anuire and Caulnor
    (which have no cities) are just highly productive farms, supplying the city
    with food and having no indiginous industry of its own, relying on the city.
    Possible, but not altogether likely.

    The second possible interpretation is that the city is just a regular city
    of maybe 100,000 people, but that because of the place of this city in
    Anuirean politics, and the vestages of Imperial institutions, the value of
    the RP`s are very high. Because the residents are mostly nobles, wealthy
    merchants, and other wealthy individuals, their economic activities are
    highly profitable.

    If we take the first point of view, we treat the City of Anurie as just a
    another province.

    If we take the second point of view, we exagerate the concentration effects
    discussed in Hollingholmen and Ilien. Such a City of Anuire would have an
    unusually high number of goldsmiths, gem cutters, producers of masterwork
    items, expert scribes, top heralds, sculptors of marble, famed painters, and
    producers of goods of great expence. Its also possible some of the income
    of the city comes from some kind of old Imperial Tax. Perhaps once a year
    every adult citizen of Anuire paid a copper penny to the Empire. Even at 10
    million CP, that`s 50 GB`s collected, or 12.5 GB collected per season, or
    3.5 GB higher than the average light tax of the City. That 3.5 must fund
    the collection of the tax.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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