Regent classes

[kgauck]

On Tue, 3 Dec 2002, daniel mcsorley wrote:
> > I think it`s similar to the way D&D gods get power from
> > the belief of their worshippers; same way for regents. So
> > it`s more:
> > RP = belief in power
> > than
> > RP = power.

This bottom-up source of power strikes me as against the theme of BR, which
is based on the rights of those born to power, not those accepted by the
mob. I see the setting as one that allows the top down application of
aristocratic sensibilities. The all powerful gods picked me to rule, and
gave me special powers to facilitate my governance.

Hence RP is power which creates belief, rather than belief that creates
power.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[ryancaveney]

On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, kgauck wrote:

> This is true as they are written, but that assumes a level of local
> trade that I think pre- supposes a railroad network.

=) Then again, with enough magic, just maybe... but that would presumably
require the expenditure of immense numbers of RP in a fairly difficult
"Enchant Road" realm spell.

> Most trade was historically long distance trade.

Yes, and of a small amount of luxury goods.

> My conception of trade routes is based in place theory, and so I have
> established 4 trade routes that run across the continent from east to
> west, with more local trade networks connecting to one of these main
> lines.

What exactly is "place theory", and do you have a map of these online?


Ryan Caveney

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[Birthright-L]

On Wed, 4 Dec 2002, Ryan B. Caveney wrote:
> > I don`t think RP is just political power, because then unblooded lords
> > could get it too.
>
> Yeah, that is an issue. My current thought on the matter is that anyone
> who becomes ruler of a holding gains RP from it; if the new regent has no
> bloodline, they automatically spend themselves to create one for him.
> For example, an unblooded person who suddenly acquires holdings which
> would generate 21 RP does not gain those RP his first turn; instead, he
> gets a bloodline of 6, because that`s what he`d get if he spent a total of
> 21 RP to raise his bloodline from zero in successive steps: 1+2+3+4+5+6=21.

Whoa, you just boggled my mind there. That`s a very interesting use of
the land`s choice rule.

Quibbles: Bloodlines boundary conditions were poorly defined. What
happens when someone with bloodline 1 has a child with a commoner? Is the
kid unblooded (because you can`t have a bloodline less than 1), bloodline
0 (because you can have a bloodline less than 1, but round fractions
down), or bloodline 1 (because divine essense doesn`t just vanish, so you
round fractions up)? In any case, I would say unblooded is not equivalent
to bloodline 0.
My rule would be
bloodline 1 + unblooded= bloodline 0 (nothing useful, but potential is
there)
bloodline 0 + unblooded= unblooded

Also, isn`t there a rule that you can only invest RP into your bloodline
once per domain turn? I think I remember that.

So I`d say, an unblooded guy get a domain. The first turn, he gets no RP,
but a bloodline of 0 is created for him. The RP he didn`t collect isn`t
banked, I don`t like that.

Second turn, he gets bloodline 1. Third turn, bloodline 2. This could
only continue as long as there`s uncollected RP around to raise his
bloodline in one turn, it shouldn`t bank. So his best bloodline he could
get `free` like this would be half his domain power.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[Peter Lubke]

On Thu, 2002-12-05 at 10:38, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
> On Tue, 3 Dec 2002, daniel mcsorley wrote:
> > > I think it`s similar to the way D&D gods get power from
> > > the belief of their worshippers; same way for regents. So
> > > it`s more:
> > > RP = belief in power
> > > than
> > > RP = power.
>
> This bottom-up source of power strikes me as against the theme of BR, which
> is based on the rights of those born to power, not those accepted by the
> mob. I see the setting as one that allows the top down application of
> aristocratic sensibilities. The all powerful gods picked me to rule, and
> gave me special powers to facilitate my governance.
>
> Hence RP is power which creates belief, rather than belief that creates
> power.

Ah, but doesn`t a bloodline give you a measure of self-belief?

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Lubke" <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU>
Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 6:31 PM


> > Hence RP is power which creates belief, rather than belief that creates
> > power.
>
> Ah, but doesn`t a bloodline give you a measure of self-belief?

That would be an example of a power creating a belief.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[kgauck]

Place theory is a geographical abstraction to explain why cities are where
they are, and why certain concentric zones of economic activity form around
them. It was developed by Walter Christaller in the 19th century. It is
based on two basic concepts. 1) There is a minimum market size necessary to
sustain a market in non-edibles. For example, if we use the chart from S.
John Ross` demographics web page, we see that 150 people can support one
shoemaker. 250 people will support one furrier, one maid, and one tailor.
350 people are required before there are enough customers to support a
barber. 2) There is also a maximum distance people are willing to travel to
obtain goods. If this space limitation were not present, people would
always obtain goods from their place of origin.

The fact that the standard rules allow me to build a trade route from
Bhalaene to Bheline (adjacent provinces in Ghoere) suggests that people are
not willing to travel from Bheline to Bhalaene for their trade needs. In
fact, they would prefer to pay (in aggregate) 5 GB to shift the labor to
someone else. Not only that, the profit from moving goods about 30 miles is
100% of the value of the goods. This presumes standard BR roads. I`m
pretty sure that peasants, making 1 sp per day, can`t afford 100% price
increases, and so trade must strictly be a property of the wealthy. But
even still, there just isn`t enough wealth to justify 5GB in profit for
moving products 30 miles. If a horse walks 5 mph (per MM) then the average
maximum distance for regular trade is closer to 40 miles, and its going to
amount to something much, much smaller than 5GB between adjacent provinces.

Place theory uses hexes to map the areas served, because circles overlap.
Familiar to gamers.

Place theory assumes that in a perfectly flat world without political
impediments, the distribution would towns, cities, and large cities would be
regular and evenly distributed. But, the world has an uneven distribution
of resources, is geographically irregular, and has political boundaries (and
the varied opportunities that follows from them). So, we also have the
Transportation Principle and the Political Principle. The transportation
principle states that cities on major transportation routes (roads, rivers,
coastlines) will be larger because a greater proportion of economic activity
makes use of these transportation routes, and that cities and towns which
are not on such routes will be smaller than they would otherwise be. The
political principle is similar in its effect, but is based on the
differential opportunities of different political environments. For
example, Jaison Raenech is hostile to his major guilder, seems harsh in all
his laws, and generally does not promote trade. This inhibits all economic
activity, making the minimum necessary market larger to overcome this
obstacle. Aerenwe, on the other hand, has a less restrictive ruler, a
peolpe who worship the godess of the ocean, and can be expected to divert
some of that economic activity away from Brothendar, Algael, and Spiritsend,
and into Dhoenel and Calrie. Given a choice to do business on either side
of the unnamed river that flows between the two realms, the political
principle tells us to expect that towns and cities are smaller in Osoerde
than in its neighbors, most of whom are politicaly much friendlier to trade
and the guilders in action there.

So every town and city has a hinterland. The towns` hinterland is the rural
area around them. They are a market for agricultural produce and provide a
market for craftsmen who serve the whole hinterland. Small cities will have
several towns in its hinterland. It will act as a town itself, but also as
a catchment area for services that are not provided in the towns itself.
Every town will have a butcher, but perhaps only the cities will have
dedicated spice merchants. Every town will have carpenters who can make a
door or a chest, but only in cities are there locksmiths. Finally there are
the large cities who have a group of smaller cities in their catchment
areas. These cities will provide services not found even in the small
cities, such as banking, or bookselling.

So let`s look at the Highland/Overland Traders. Guild Master Ghorien has
level 2 holdings in Alaroine, Maesford, Soutmoor, anmd Cwlldon, and a 3 in
Tenarien. Ghorien has here a penetration into the markets of others here.
All of those except Alaroine are towns, probabaly in the catchment area of
Ghieste. Riumache is identified as a city, but note that it falls on the
River Maesil. So, I imagine a trade route connecting Endier to Ghiere on to
Riumache, and then overland to Bhalaene and on to Ansien. From Ghiere to
Achiese, Master Ghorien controls the trade route and profits from it.
Bhalaene provides the big city services to all of the areas in the
Highland/Overland catchment area. I imagine a large bank with clerks and
bookkeepers, and everything else you`ve ever seen from a Dutch painting in
which money was displayed on a table. There is a small office in Ghieste,
Alaroine, and Caudraight, but they just function as extentions of the place
where the gold is in Bhalaene. The best craft experts are in Ghieste and
Bhalaene, but there many more in Bhalaene. Factors in Bhalaene buy goods
comming from the east (immediately out of Ansien) and store them in
warehouses for distribution between now and the next caravan. A much
smaller set of warehouses exist in Ghieste. At Ghieste and Bhalaene goods
comming from the west are purchased, but most of these goods continue moving
east. Auditors from Bhalaene keep an eye on holdings throughout Ghorien`s
domain. The archives are in Bhalaene.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Peter Lubke]

On Thu, 2002-12-05 at 13:51, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
> Place theory is a geographical abstraction to explain why cities are where
> they are, and why certain concentric zones of economic activity form around
> them.
Never heard of it - but expected something like it to exist.

>
> The fact that the standard rules allow me to build a trade route from
> Bhalaene to Bheline (adjacent provinces in Ghoere) suggests that people are
> not willing to travel from Bheline to Bhalaene for their trade needs. In
> fact, they would prefer to pay (in aggregate) 5 GB to shift the labor to
> someone else. Not only that, the profit from moving goods about 30 miles is
> 100% of the value of the goods. This presumes standard BR roads. I`m
> pretty sure that peasants, making 1 sp per day, can`t afford 100% price
> increases, and so trade must strictly be a property of the wealthy. But
> even still, there just isn`t enough wealth to justify 5GB in profit for
> moving products 30 miles. If a horse walks 5 mph (per MM) then the average
> maximum distance for regular trade is closer to 40 miles, and its going to
> amount to something much, much smaller than 5GB between adjacent provinces.

I agree.

Standard BR trade route rules are poor. (let`s be honest)
They tie trade zones and provinces together, and they are too easy to
create and generate far too much GB.

I, personally, restrict them quite severely. A trade route out of
Bheline to anywhere isn`t possible. Although trade from Bheline may
occur to neighboring provinces in Ghoere, this is subsumed in Bheline`s
guild activity.


>
> Place theory uses hexes to map the areas served, because circles overlap.
> Familiar to gamers.
>
> Place theory assumes that in a perfectly flat world without political
> impediments, the distribution would towns, cities, and large cities would be
> regular and evenly distributed. But, the world has an uneven distribution
> of resources, is geographically irregular, and has political boundaries (and
> the varied opportunities that follows from them). So, we also have the
> Transportation Principle and the Political Principle.

Interesting, the theory seems to mirror exactly how I have restricted
trade. This is a real theory? Can I have a reference to back up my
*arbitrary* trade decisions please?

The transportation
> principle states that cities on major transportation routes (roads, rivers,
> coastlines) will be larger because a greater proportion of economic activity
> makes use of these transportation routes, and that cities and towns which
> are not on such routes will be smaller than they would otherwise be. The
> political principle is similar in its effect, but is based on the
> differential opportunities of different political environments. For
> example, Jaison Raenech is hostile to his major guilder, seems harsh in all
> his laws, and generally does not promote trade. This inhibits all economic
> activity, making the minimum necessary market larger to overcome this
> obstacle. Aerenwe, on the other hand, has a less restrictive ruler, a
> peolpe who worship the godess of the ocean, and can be expected to divert
> some of that economic activity away from Brothendar, Algael, and Spiritsend,
> and into Dhoenel and Calrie. Given a choice to do business on either side
> of the unnamed river that flows between the two realms,

Spirit River poss ?

Spirit`s End

the political
> principle tells us to expect that towns and cities are smaller in Osoerde
> than in its neighbors, most of whom are politicaly much friendlier to trade
> and the guilders in action there.
>
> So every town and city has a hinterland. The towns` hinterland is the rural
> area around them. They are a market for agricultural produce and provide a
> market for craftsmen who serve the whole hinterland. Small cities will have
> several towns in its hinterland. It will act as a town itself, but also as
> a catchment area for services that are not provided in the towns itself.
> Every town will have a butcher, but perhaps only the cities will have
> dedicated spice merchants. Every town will have carpenters who can make a
> door or a chest, but only in cities are there locksmiths. Finally there are
> the large cities who have a group of smaller cities in their catchment
> areas. These cities will provide services not found even in the small
> cities, such as banking, or bookselling.
>
> So let`s look at the Highland/Overland Traders. Guild Master Ghorien has
> level 2 holdings in Alaroine, Maesford, Soutmoor, anmd Cwlldon, and a 3 in
> Tenarien. Ghorien has here a penetration into the markets of others here.
> All of those except Alaroine are towns, probabaly in the catchment area of
> Ghieste. Riumache is identified as a city, but note that it falls on the
> River Maesil. So, I imagine a trade route connecting Endier to Ghiere on to
> Riumache, and then overland to Bhalaene and on to Ansien. From Ghiere to
> Achiese, Master Ghorien controls the trade route and profits from it.
> Bhalaene provides the big city services to all of the areas in the
> Highland/Overland catchment area. I imagine a large bank with clerks and
> bookkeepers, and everything else you`ve ever seen from a Dutch painting in
> which money was displayed on a table. There is a small office in Ghieste,
> Alaroine, and Caudraight, but they just function as extentions of the place
> where the gold is in Bhalaene. The best craft experts are in Ghieste and
> Bhalaene, but there many more in Bhalaene. Factors in Bhalaene buy goods
> comming from the east (immediately out of Ansien) and store them in
> warehouses for distribution between now and the next caravan. A much
> smaller set of warehouses exist in Ghieste. At Ghieste and Bhalaene goods
> comming from the west are purchased, but most of these goods continue moving
> east. Auditors from Bhalaene keep an eye on holdings throughout Ghorien`s
> domain. The archives are in Bhalaene.

Curious, almost 100% identical.

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[ConjurerDragon]

Hello!

Ryan B. Caveney wrote:

>On Tue, 3 Dec 2002, daniel mcsorley wrote:
>
>Yeah, that is an issue. My current thought on the matter is that anyone
>who becomes ruler of a holding gains RP from it; if the new regent has no
>bloodline, they automatically spend themselves to create one for him.
>For example, an unblooded person who suddenly acquires holdings which
>would generate 21 RP does not gain those RP his first turn; instead, he
>gets a bloodline of 6, because that`s what he`d get if he spent a total of
>21 RP to raise his bloodline from zero in successive steps: 1+2+3+4+5+6=21.
>
That´s 2E, when you spend your bloodline +1 to gain one more point of
bloodline.
And you forgot p. 37 of the 2E rulebook: A character can raise his
bloodline strenght by no more than 1 point per domain turn in this
fashion, so to get a bloodline of 6 he would need 6 domain turns or 18
month - else bloodlines raise much too fast.
bye
Michael

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[geeman]

At 05:38 PM 12/4/2002 -0600, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

>This bottom-up source of power strikes me as against the theme of BR, which
>is based on the rights of those born to power, not those accepted by the
>mob. I see the setting as one that allows the top down application of
>aristocratic sensibilities. The all powerful gods picked me to rule, and
>gave me special powers to facilitate my governance.
>
>Hence RP is power which creates belief, rather than belief that creates
>power.

Using the above description, wouldn`t it be better stated that bloodline is
the power that creates belief? The "top-down application" as it were, but
that application is possible only because of "the bottom-up transfer of
power." That is, the RP/power created by belief. (Which is pretty well in
line with the published materials.)

Gary

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[ryancaveney]

On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, Michael Romes wrote:

> That´s 2E, when you spend your bloodline +1 to gain one more point of

What does 2e or not 2e have to do with anything? Bloodline as a part of
the domain rulership system is entirely separate from whatever RPG system
is used to adjudicate character and adventure actions, or even whether you
bother to choose to have such a system at all.

> And you forgot p. 37 of the 2E rulebook: A character can raise his
> bloodline strenght by no more than 1 point per domain turn in this
> fashion, so to get a bloodline of 6 he would need 6 domain turns or 18
> month - else bloodlines raise much too fast.

I didn`t forget this rule -- I am deliberately suggesting a modification
of it, or even perhaps its elimination. What I proposed is not a new way
regents may choose to use RP they normally collect, but rather something
new that might happen to those RP their domains generate but their
bloodlines are too small for them to collect. Raising up quickly from
zero is I think a good thing about the system, not a bad, in that regents
with bloodlines of 30 or 31 are about equally OK, and regents with
bloodlines of 0 or 1 are about equally doomed. Having a short growth time
from zero to something useful is essential to allow a newly-starting
once-commoner regent to survive; of course, if you think such people ought
to be squashed like flies, or forbidden outright, then there`s nothing to
worry about.

Even in standard game play, I actually see nothing wrong with allowing
people to increase their bloodlines by as many points at a time as they
want, since the number of RP required is extremely high: going from 0 to 6
requires 21 RP, but going from 30 to 36 requires 201 RP! One of the
things my "grow to fill the job" suggestion is intended to do is actually
provide a way for the bloodline increase rule to come into play; since
increasing the bloodline is spending RP in order to earn more RP in
future, for it to be a sensible investment the projected payoff must
exceed the up-front cost -- in order for spending the 201 RP to raise your
bloodline from 30 to 36 to be a good idea, you have to expect that your
reign will exceed 37 domain turns in length; this is unlikely to be
reached in the time horizon of most campaigns I`ve heard of. Even that is
based on spending them all at once -- if, as is probably a more reasonable
model for number of RPs saved and available for tasks other than real
actions, you only save a couple of RP per turn to be put to this project,
it will take a hundred domain turns, or 25 game years, or lay aside that
much, and not until turn 64 (year 16) do you show a profit.

At one point I thought about providing an immediate incentive in order to
encourage spending on bloodline increases: since you are in come sense
investing mystical energy to make you more powerful as a regent, why not
also have it make you more powerful as an adventurer, and declare that RP
spent to increase bloodline also increase XP? Amusing, but at present I
prefer my newer idea of "bloodline just grows on its own."


Ryan Caveney

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