Of Divinity and Bloodlines...

[Magnus Argent]

I find it harder to believe that this one man is the ONLY druid in all of Khinasi than believing that this druid is the only druid in that culture that is trying to make a difference (enough to actually be worthy mentioning).



True, but they get their divine power from somewhere. Whose to say Erik isn't involved in all that nature magic?

The problem, of course, is those pesky elves...



So, what? The Khinasi are the only culture that repudiates Erik as being Avani's husband? Who is Leira's father, then?

Why would the Khinasi not worship the husband of their patron deity?

In this pantheistic world, I find it harder to believe that the Khinasi reject this god but accept a different culture's god.

More likely, Erik's message resonates less with the Khinasi because other gods (i.e. Nasri) oversees areas that are of more interest to them, so he gets less "face time".

But that doesn't mean they don't acknowledge his existence, or pay him homage in his areas of expertise... again, this is a pantheistic culture, like the rest of Cerilia...



Haelyn is Anuire's patron god. Why would he suddenly disappear from the dialogue just because these worshippers are taken with another god's message? Or, more precisely, how did this founding priest convince these people to take their faith away from Haelyn and place it in another deity? More importantly, why would these people start listening to a foreign regent/culture over one of their own?

All of these are great questions. How you choose to answer them is completely up to you.

[masterdaorin]

And the Itave have nothing to do with Erik. Just because all of Erik's priests are druids doesn't mean that all druids are priests of Erik. The Temple Regent, Vede, is a druid who venerates spirits of earth and air water. The Itave are an oddity but there is nothing linking them to Erik.

That is false. The Core Rulebook categorically states, and I quote:

"Druids: In Cerilia, druids are priests of Erik, the god of nature and the hunt. Druids are especially prominent in the Rjurik lands, but can be found throughout the rest of Cerilia. For more information on druidic powers and abilities, see the description of Erik's faith in Gods of Cerilia, in Part III of this book (referenced from page 12)."

Of course, later editions of the game have changed the way the magic works.

Perhaps druids/rangers should cast arcane spells? Perhaps mebhaighl is "neutral", and becomes arcane or divine energy when channeled through an appropriate conduit...?

I'm of the opinion of expanding upon explanations, however, and not limiting them. Thus, I can get behind the argument that adepts/druids/elves/fey/rangers channel a different type of energy. Should we strike "divine" from their spell descriptions? Or find some other explanation...?

As I said, the fact that I cannot find any Khinasi domain that contains temple holdings devoted to Erik leads me to believe that the Khinasi do not worship him. However, I will also say that I cannot find any material that outright states, "the Khinasi do not worship Erik." If you believe that the lack of such a statement is proof positive that Khinasi worship Erik, who am I to argue?

See above.

Most likely, the Khinasi beseech Erik through their patron goddess, Avani (or Leira), for everything they need from him, thus explaining the lack of (i.e. the necessity) of having temples devoted to Erik.

The reverse is also true in the Rjurik lands, it would seem. The Rjurik worship Vani, but Erik is the All-Father, and beseech the sun goddess through him for everything they need from her.

The same argument would most likely also hold true in Anuirean lands re: Haelyn, and all the other gods throughout Cerilia.

[masterdaorin]

All of these are great questions. How you choose to answer them is completely up to you.

Of course!

But I come here to seek consensus on issues, however, so would appreciate your input.

[Malphas]

i have only skimmed through the tread so my apologies if it was already stated.

in 2e dnd spelljammer rules it is stated that spells of 1st and 2nd level can come from personal belief (in planets where the priests deity has no power).
this can partially explain both djapar worship of basaia and serpent shenanigans (initially at least).

i recon serpent started with low tier and was able to expand the scheme due to having true bloodline. i really like the idea of death as a requirement to finish the apotheosis. that can explain why no awnsheghlien was able to achieve it.

serpents existence shows that if you are subtle, no-one shall be the wiser.

in conclusion, 3 things would be necessary for apotheosis:
1 true bloodline
2 established following (god or sainthood)
3 personal death

somewhat related: what happens if a person bloodsilvers a higher tier bloodline?
i know the blood score increase and in case of azrais blood taint chance, but what of grade? (rules in book of regency IIRC cover grade increase through RPs but not elven bloodtheft or even bloodtheft in general)

also. what if serpent (and any copycats) need RP expenditure to upkeep their religion?
thoughts on amount (and nr/lvl of priests above 4th lvl it buys?)

[masterdaorin]

somewhat related: what happens if a person bloodsilvers a higher tier bloodline?
i know the blood score increase and in case of azrais blood taint chance, but what of grade? (rules in book of regency IIRC cover grade increase throgh RPs but not elven bloodtheft or even bloodtheft in general)

I don't think it would matter. True is the purest strength of divinity. It's unfiltered, so there would be no further grade increase.

also. what if serpent (and any copycats) need RP expenditure to upkeep their religion?
thoughts on amount (and nr/lvl of priests above 4th lvl it buys?)

Now there's an interesting thought.

But, why would the gods need to, when scions don't? Regent's don't need to spend RP to maintain their regency status...

Remember: the only difference between scions and gods is amount of divinity (that is, strength and purity of bloodline)...

[masterdaorin]

All this talk has me thinking of something else...

Clearly, the new gods exist because they have a portion of a predecessor's divinity within them.

But, other gods existed before them. So, in effect, these older gods also have bloodlines... and, presumably, if they died, an entire new derivation would be created...

Hmmm.... dragons are coming to mind...

[Magnus Argent]

Of course!

But I come here to seek consensus on issues, however, so would appreciate your input.

Ok.. I lost track, tho.. where are you looking when you're quoting that rule?

As for answering those very good questions, since the source material can support multiple interpretations of that particular topic, I'd say that the only wrong answer is "my answer is the definitive answer."

My version of Cerilia has each culture worshipping a unique pantheon of deities that consist of gods who have been given a name by that culture. In many cases, worship of one or more "foreign" gods has spread into a culture from another region. For example, worship of the Anuirian god of noble battle, Haelyn, has spread into Brechtur via Rhormarch. Prior to his temples being built in Rhormarch, Haelyn wasn't really on the radar of the typical Brecht.

The Khinasi pantheon includes Halaia, Sarma, Nasri, and Leira. They are considered to be the gods of Air, Earth, Water, and Fire, respectively. But Khinasi is a sophisticated culture.. to them, Air isn't just Air. They associate certain characteristics with it. So, when the Khinasi say Halaia is a god of air and sky, they are saying that he is a god of honor, law, and other such lofty ideals. Sarma being a goddess of earth doesn't mean she's a nature god. Khinasi associate earth with prosperity and wealth due to the precious ores, gems, and other valuable commodities buried within it. It is worth nothing that the worship of Anuire's patron deity spread into the Khinasi Island States during the days of Imperial Occupation. The Dragonsea Temple of Haelyn still exists in Suirene today. Only those trained in Religion suspect Haelyn and Halaia are one and the same. Most Khinasi see them as totally different deities. Again, that's just the spin I chose to use for my version of Cerilia. You're welcome to read more about it <<here>> if you like.

[Malphas]

I don't think it would matter. True is the purest strength of Now there's an interesting thought.

But, why would the gods need to, when scions don't? Regent's don't need to spend RP to maintain their regency status...

Remember: the only difference between scions and gods is amount of divinity (that is, strength and purity of bloodline)...

actually pretty simple reason
my statement was abut upkeep of religion in terms of spells

gods grant spells (and powers) to their priests. most scions don't. thus gods (and serpent) need to spend RP on upkeep while bog standard temple regents (priest or otherwise) don't.

the RP should thus be in proportion to the amount of high level priests (as discussed in my previous post level 5 and up). i recon normal gods gain some universal basic RP income (from unorganized religion and divine status) perhaps in proportion of divine grade. they could also gain some RP from total temple holdings of that god in all lands across all temples. those would be bonus RP (to avoid headaches fr game masters and such).

[Malphas]

I don't think it would matter. True is the purest strength of divinity. It's unfiltered, so there would be no further grade increase.

boy did my post get misunderstood.

lets go by by an extreme example:
sir protagonist the lucky (anduiras tainted 6) in his infinite wisdom grabs his bloodsilver sword of eternal plot and goes to fight the gorgon (azrai true 100+ lets say 120). in a spectacular turn of events he kills gorgon and using a tighmaevril weapon gets 60 pts of bloodline.
now as per book of regency p24 sir protagonist gets 6/6-1 d6 to roll vs gorgons 120/6 d8.
it is mathematically impossible to win for sir protagonist thus his bloodline changes to azrai.
sir protagonist the lucky (azrai tainted 66). now slaying the gorgon is an epic feat and thus a generous (or intelligent) gm may decide that it qualify as the great deed needed for improving the bloodline strength. thus sir protagonist the lucky is now (azrai minor 66). considering he just ate a true bloodline (and changed derivation) this feels wrong.

now imagine he went drunk on success and went on to fight and kill the manslayer (azrai true 95). sword of eternal plot working as intended would dutifully transfer 47 blood to sir protagonist, but protagonist having already increased his bloodline strength in his lifetime is barred from doing it again (book of regency p17).
thus we have sir protagonist the lucky (azrai minor 113) who consumed 2 true bloodlines.

[Magnus Argent]

actually pretty simple reason
my statement was abut upkeep of religion in terms of spells

gods grant spells (and powers) to their priests. most scions don't. thus gods (and serpent) need to spend RP on upkeep while bog standard temple regents (priest or otherwise) don't.

the RP should thus be in proportion to the amount of high level priests (as discussed in my previous post level 5 and up). i recon normal gods gain some universal basic RP income (from unorganized religion and divine status) perhaps in proportion of divine grade. they could also gain some RP from total temple holdings of that god in all lands across all temples. those would be bonus RP (to avoid headaches fr game masters and such).

Bards sing, right? It's what they do. It's a component baked into the very concept of what a bard is. To me, gods granting spells to their priests works the same way. It's what they do. None of the gods are presented as having or needing RP in particular.

Personally, I embrace the notion that the relative strengths of the gods of Cerilia are tied to the number of temple holdings they have devoted to them. I'm currently designing a campaign designed around temple regents and by tying the gods relative power to temple holdings, it gives me an impartial way of determining who is winning a divine conflict. It'll also give players tangible, attainable goals with and gives meaning to the decisions they make. In my campaign, rulers actions can affect nations but the actions of High Priests can affect the heavens.

There are others who absolutely disagree with the notion of a god's power being tied to temple holdings. Neither interpretation actually conflicts with canon.. It's a concept I'm using because it works best with my campaign.

If you decide requiring some sort of expenditure of godly power is required to cast spells makes your campaign work better, go for it. But if you're just looking to for help in understanding how the setting was originally designed.. there's nothing in the source material that I know of that states that the Serpent is required to pay RP upkeep for spells granted to his followers and none of the gods are presented as gaining or spending RP to the best of my knowledge.