Questions regarding Divine Bloodlines

[Fizz]

On average, a d8 gives you +1 from a d6. So 5d8 will on average be +5 more than 5d6. Plus, because the 3e conversion does allow other derivations to take over, they wanted to make Azrai's taint significantly more difficult to resist. So i think a +10 is fine.

I've been thinking about this... because the method used in 3e is so different, it's difficult to compare the two.

In Book of Regency, the number of dice used depends on the bloodline score. So if both are low scores, it's a d6 versus a d8, which only slighty favors Azrai. But as both bloodlines go up (even if exactly the same the values), more dice favors that of Azrai. So the stronger the Azrai bloodline, even if the original bloodline is just as strong, the more easily Azrai's takes over.

But in the 3e version, it is a static bonus. That means even a weak line has a very strong chance of taking over another weak line- in fact the original derivation has to be significantly stronger to stand a chance even against a weak Azrai bloodline. But there is no difference in chances as bloodlines go up. A bloodline of 30 versus 30 has the same odds of taking over as 5 versus 5.

So yeah, i think you're right that +10 is a problem, particularly for weak bloodlines. What to do about it- not sure. Personally i'd just use the method from the Book of Regency. Not everything is best modelled with the same mechanic like 3e does.

-FIzz

[Witness3]

I am not sure what you mean. If the absorbed bloodline is stronger than the usurper's, the absorbed bloodline might take over. (Under the 3e conversion rules.)

-Fizz

What I meant is that I was under the impression that the bloodline takeover would happen only if the absorbed blood points (which are not always the victim's full blood points) are bigger than the killer's blood score. I was wrong.

I have to admit that I was very confused on bloodtheft rules, mixed 3E with 2E, and core rulebook with book of regency. This thread has been a good update on such rules for me.

In all the sources i mentioned earlier the effect of tighmaevril on bloodtheft is included. I don't know specifics about tighmaevril you mean otherwise.

The additional rules are in the book of regency, magic weapon/armor sections, where they discuss blood swords and magic swords with a mixed alloy of bloodsilver and other metals. However, I also got them wrong, I thought that blood swords allowed partial syphoning of blood points. I cannot find such idea anywhere, so I guess I have translated badly some source material years ago. Again, my bad.

[Witness3]

And, you know, this flavor analogy solves another problem I had.

A scion's bloodline is not made from the original source material - the parents. This is NEW "raw energy"... not coming from the parents. The parents just inform the flavor combination.

This actually makes think more complicated. I was under the impression that BR has a "sunset" feel on civilization growing. Civilization grows, so mebhaighl fades - one day magic may be just a myth of the past. Such should be the fate of divine kings, since the divine energy gets watered and watered and lost - unless you count lost blood (those blood points not stolen in bloodtheft) as divine energy returning to the land. On such case, I wonder how the land "digests" bloodlines...

Then there is the newborn issue. If the divine essence is not just inherited from the parents, and its generated anew, then there is no shortage of divine energy as long as blooded individuals breed. This would also mean that the whole "progeny of the old gods" is more a myth than a real connection with Anduiras & the others. Or maybe Anduiras and Brenna are more like "A", "AB", "B+" etc.

Now, why are only the Azrai flavors able to become dominant...? Hmmm... What's the secret...?[/QUOTE]

Well, it is intended that Azrai was much stronger in influencing from the start. After all, it took all the gods to defeat him. I think it is similar to Morgoth - same status as the other gods, but somehow stronger than any of them individually.

Offhand, can anyone think of a good reason why the other's should corrupt a scion's natural bloodline?

We have two great examples: 1. The Magian corruption spell, and 2. The corruption of the last emperor's son, which starts the Michaeline Reckoning and ends the Anuirean Empire.

Changing a bloodline may end an empire, so I'd say its the equivalent of a nuke, in the right hands. Changing a bloodline may deprive the regent of certain blood abilities essential to keep the peace - tainting with Azrai is a guarantee that the regent will be mad and monstrous, probably unfit to rule, but he won't be removed as he'd still be regent. Even better than murder!

Thus being said, if a spell may corrupt, a spell may restore. Domain spells still requires ingredients of some sort, maybe the reversal of the corruption spell requires ingredients so rare that a campaign is needed to find them (something cool and epic like tears of the hydra or a lock of hair of the white witch ).

[Fizz]

This actually makes think more complicated. I was under the impression that BR has a "sunset" feel on civilization growing. Civilization grows, so mebhaighl fades - one day magic may be just a myth of the past. Such should be the fate of divine kings, since the divine energy gets watered and watered and lost - unless you count lost blood (those blood points not stolen in bloodtheft) as divine energy returning to the land. On such case, I wonder how the land "digests" bloodlines...

Well, mebhaighl is the energy from the land. That is different from the bloodlines inherited from the old gods. Bloodline energy is slowly being diluted, but mebhaighl regenerates so long as civilization stays out of the way.

We have two great examples: 1. The Magian corruption spell, and 2. The corruption of the last emperor's son, which starts the Michaeline Reckoning and ends the Anuirean Empire.

Bloodline Corruption, yes. The corruption of Michael's son is an unknown cause (according to the wiki entry anyways). What is the source of that story? I only know it from the wiki.

Thus being said, if a spell may corrupt, a spell may restore. Domain spells still requires ingredients of some sort, maybe the reversal of the corruption spell requires ingredients so rare that a campaign is needed to find them (something cool and epic like tears of the hydra or a lock of hair of the white witch ).

Yes, it should be an epically potent spell. The Magian has only cast Bloodline Corruption once, after all. I agree the components would require some unique component, but since the aim is to remove Azrai's bloodline, it think is should require some sort of component from an ershegh or other antithesis to Azrai. It should probably be an even more difficult spell, since Azrai's bloodline more easily takes hold. and is thus presumably more difficult to remove.

Of course, there is also the Destroy Bloodline spell, but that is frowned upon since bloodlines are so rare, no one wants to lose the energy.


-Fizz

[masterdaorin]

Bloodline Corruption, yes. The corruption of Michael's son is an unknown cause (according to the wiki entry anyways). What is the source of that story? I only know it from the wiki.

It's from the novel War by Simon Hawke.

The way it's described in the novel, it's basic birth. Raesene's bloodline is stronger than Faelin's, and so the child (monster) born is an awnshegh.

What's different, of course, is that Faelin swallows the Gorgon's seed, and that the baby is born manifesting blood signs. I don't mind that (IMC, bloodmarks manifest at birth; the others wait until puberty). I guess I'll add bloodform and bloodtrait to that list. Actually, now that I think about it, it makes sense - that's how the awnsheghlien birth their spawn.

So I don't know why the wiki entry describes it as an unknown cause.

[masterdaorin]

We have two great examples: 1. The Magian corruption spell, and 2. The corruption of the last emperor's son, which starts the Michaeline Reckoning and ends the Anuirean Empire.

Well, both of those examples are for changing the bloodline's derivation to Azrai, but still... it seems logical that the reverse could be true.

However, the more that I think about it, I'm not sure the other derivations should corrupt like Azrai's... and that the 2e version is the best way.

For now I'm keeping the 3e version rules... but that might change in the near future, after I've pondered some more...

[masterdaorin]

Perhaps not.
Unlike an ability where the the aging process is unnaturally halted and then suddenly catches up when the ability is removed (old vampires turning to dust, etc.), the long life blood ability is worded as "..ages only one year for every five that pass.", every 25 for major or "...only one year for each century." for great, and it specifies the Gorgon as an example.

And here is another problem I have with bloodlines.

It's tempting to make some blood abilities extraordinary, rather supernatural, such as long life, I'm not so sure they can be so... nuanced as this.

First, they only start to manifest at puberty. So, it's not part of the "genetic make-up"... or is it? It sounds more like bloodlines respond to emotions and feelings and changes to the physiology of the scion rather than being something that is tied "naturally" into the scion.

Take, for instance, Bloodmark. We'll use the Avan one for this purpose. It's a purple, dragon head birthmark.

What happens to it if Darien Avan suddenly loses his bloodline? Does it remain? Fade away? Suddenly go "pop!" and disappear?

And, if it remains, then what? Its still a recognizable bloodline indicator... I suppose the "effect" of the bloodmark blood ability can be magical, but...

Arrrgh...

[Sorontar]

Take, for instance, Bloodmark. We'll use the Avan one for this purpose. It's a purple, dragon head birthmark.

What happens to it if Darien Avan suddenly loses his bloodline? Does it remain? Fade away? Suddenly go "pop!" and disappear?

And, if it remains, then what? Its still a recognizable bloodline indicator... I suppose the "effect" of the bloodmark blood ability can be magical, but...
Arrrgh...

What if he became Azrai bloodline? Would it change to bloodform and then his head would gradually become dragon or lizard-like?

[Doyle]

There is a note in the Players secrets of Binsada that if the current regent "has invested the PC with her bloodline strength, the only blood ability she retains is her bloodmark."

Not that I'm suggesting that the PS's are always consistent with the rules, but I think it may give the DM the option.

[masterdaorin]

What if he became Azrai bloodline? Would it change to bloodform and then his head would gradually become dragon or lizard-like?

Good question, but probably not. Azrai's derivation retains bloodmarks, so that would probably stay, and Bloodform would take the place of an illegal blood ability.

However, that being said, I'm beginning to think that changing bloodlines is impossible other than to Azrai's derivation. And maybe even impossible to lose your bloodline except at death...

Would make things simpler...