Sidhelien Spirituality

[ryancaveney]

I think deaths to accidents and natural disasters would tend to be far less than among human populations, and for humans those numbers are normally pretty low, proportionate to the population.

Yup! Among humans, accidental death is overwhelmingly a phenomenon of young males engaged in provisioning activities (e.g., bitten by snake while hunting deer) or showing off to impress young females. Once Sidhelien reached roughly the same level of mental maturity as a thirty-year-old human (which I think happens when they're about thirty, just like with humans, if not a bit earlier), their accidental death rate would fall way off -- and unlike humans, it would not pick up again once they got old, because they don't ever get physically infirm. They are also much less subject to accidental death because they are completely immune to all natural diseases -- no matter how badly they're wounded, they can't ever get gangrene. Add pervasive magic to this, and the accidental death rate drops to near zero after toddlerhood.

I believe even the BR canon would suggest that old elves still have children.

Fhilerwyn was Prince of Tuarhievel for 858 years before the birth of his son, Fhileraene. He was already a prominent general at that time, and he was clearly blooded, so he was very likely at Deismaar, 436 years before he became Prince. Therefore, the only birthdates we have for any Cerilian Sidhelien (admittedly, from the deservedly-maligned Player's Secrets of Tuarhievel) indicate pretty strongly that Fhilerwyn was at least 1,300 years old before his son was born. He was also married for the last 270 years of that, but I stand by my earlier remark that I think Sidhelien marriage is very rare, and never permanent.

I always figured elves may have quite large families and have strong, extended familial bonds.

I've often wondered about this. In the 18,000 years since Sidhe Braelachheim started the Golden Age of elven culture, how many generations have there been? How many before that did elves first spring into being from the union of the elements? Elves may have the concept "sixth cousin" from studying the other species, but have there ever actually been any elves in practice who were that distantly related? If multiple different elven strains separately coalesced from the elements (as I suspect), how many elves aren't related to each other *at all* (in contrast to humans, and indeed every species that actually evolved from earlier ones, which can all be traced back to a single primordial individual)?

I'll also note that I think BR (and D&D in general) tends to grossly underestimate populations, especially of demihumans. Cerilia probably still has well over a million elves. If it's as large a continent as Western Europe, it could easily have a total population of over 50 million (corresponding to perhaps 13th century Europe). If it's Renaissance period we're talking about and Cerilia is only as large as France, it could still have over 50 million people, if my memory serves me right.

Oh yeah! This is a favorite topic of mine (Gary's and Kenneth's, too). The canon BR figure is 7.2 million on the whole continent, including all sentient species. Officially, the largest group is Anuireans (1.8 million), followed closely by the Brecht (1.7 million), then Khinasi (970,000), Vos (820,000), Goblins (530,000), Sidhelien (500,000), Rjurik (410,000), Dwarves (170,000), Gnolls (130,000), Orogs (96,000), Halflings (94,000) and Masetians (37,000, all in the Serpent's Realm). This is calculated by adding up the squares of all the province levels on the continent to obtain population in thousands, as Kenneth suggested many years ago as an elegant and extremely close fit to the table on pages 33 to 34 of the original rulebook. For purposes of this calculation, I counted level zero provinces as 1/2 before squaring, giving 250 people each.

However, this is obviously nonsense. =) Based on 14th-century France, since Anuire is "more than 350,000 square miles" (Ruins of Empire p. 3), Anuire alone should have more than 36 million people (which probably includes some goblins, elves and dwarves, but is still a good benchmark). Therefore, multiplying the figures in the paragraph above by a factor of ten is the bare minimum adjustment, and multiplying by twenty is very realistic -- that gives a reasonable estimate of about ten million elves on the continent. I'd like to get into the population discussion more deeply, but I'll take that to another thread, which I probably won't start until next weekend.

[geeman]

At 07:41 PM 1/13/2008, Magnus Argent wrote:

>Cerilian elves have no inherent inability to worship gods. Cerilia
>simply lacks gods who inspire faith and devotion in its elven population.

They did manage to "follow" Azrai, though there`s no evidence they
actually "worshipped" him in the sense that you`re suggesting. Bear
in mind that Azrai isn`t nearly so similar to the Sidhelien POV as
Erik/Reynir or even Ruornil/Vorynn, and the idea that the Sidhe would
not worship and become priests of either of those gods strikes me as
very dubious, particularly when considered in light of existing BR
materials such as the Church of Treucht.

In fact, I find the suggesting that none of the gods are apt for the
Sidhe pretty difficult to support. Aside from the most obvious
(Erik) and the only slightly less obvious (Ruornil) there are other
aspects of the Cerilian gods worshipped by humans would be a good fit
for elves if they had the ability to worship them. Laerme`s aspect
as the goddess of beauty and art seems apt. Sera`s chaotic aspect as
the goddess of luck also would be attractive to the similarly chaotic
elves. And let`s not forget that Avani is the patroness of
magic--surely that`d appeal to the only Cerilian race capable of
casting arcane magic as part of their basic nature.

In the past folks have sometimes argued that the Sidhe should be
allowed to be druids as that role most closely resembles their own
attitudes towards nature. I don`t ascribe to that opinion, but it
should be noted that the abstract concept of "Nature" as a mystical
force that druids can focus upon is embodied in the BR concept of the
Land`s Choice, so if it were possible for them to be druids, the
Sidhe would be even more likely than elves in other settings since
their "god" is palpable and directly influences things as part of
their inheritance structure. Rangers appear to still gain their
powers from this relationship. We should also bear in mind that
there are priests that appear to still be dedicated to Azrai despite
his death 1,500 years ago, and there are priests in a temple
structure dedicated to the Serpent, so becoming a priest in BR is in
some ways easier than in other settings. Priests (or priestly
powers) are derived from dedication to something dead, abstract or
even not a god appear to be possible in BR--yet the Sidhe have none of that.

Aside from the fact that it expressly says the Sidhe cannot become
priests, there are NO exceptions to that rule in any of the published
materials. There are exceptions to even more directly states rules
in the published materials all the time.

However, if you can find some sort of support for your suggestion
that they can become priests but just choose not to then I`d be
interested to hear it....

Gary

[kgauck]

Aside from the fact that it expressly says the Sidhe cannot become priests, there are NO exceptions to that rule in any of the published materials. There are exceptions to even more directly states rules in the published materials all the time.

Given the frequency of exceptions to other kinds of rules, the complete absence of exceptions really does seem to be telling.

I'm prefectly content with the idea that their constitution which allows for the natural use of arcane magic does so in a way that cuts them off from divine magic. Whether this is a game balance issue, a result of the split of seelie and sidhe, or a side effect of mebhiaghl's nurishment, you can pick and choose the explaination, but it does seem incontravertable based on the official materials.

[ryancaveney]

However, if you can find some sort of support for your suggestion that they can become priests but just choose not to then I`d be interested to hear it.

Actually, I think the arguments you make *are* the support of his suggestion.

I agree that many of the ideals of which the gods are patrons are vitally important to the Sidhelien, but I sincerely doubt they care at all about (or at least have any positive opinion of) any of the current generation of human gods. There are elves alive who are much older than Erik, Ruornil, Avani, et al., may well have known them personally, were on the battlefield just 1524 years ago when they died, and a few may in fact have killed those human champions themselves. If they did worship anybody, it would be the old gods (Reynir, Vorynn, Basaia, et al.), or some other set entirely (Manwe and Varda, Corellon and Sehanine, or whatever) rather than the new ones (who they view basically as Sid and Nancy -- or Kurt and Courtney for you youngsters out there).

As you rightly say, priestly powers can be drawn from almost anything, with no need to have an active deity. Furthermore, many of the spells priests can cast are identical to the ones wizards can; this is especially true if you use 3e as a game system. There's certainly nothing that stops wizards from claiming to be priests and priests claiming to be wizards (I think this is what most of the wizards in Vosgaard and Rjurik do), and the commons can't reliably tell the difference. This has always very strongly implied to me that there is no essential difference between "arcane" and "divine" magic, particularly from the POV of the one species whose members don't need a bloodline to cast true magic. At the very least, it explicitly states that you can have priestly powers even if the thing you profess to worship can't answer your prayers, or in fact doesn't exist at all. Also, most of the people who worship in a temple aren't priests, they're the congregation. Anyone can sing hymns and make sacrifices to anything they want, which is what constitutes "worship" in my book, but that is entirely independent of whether they can cast Cure Disease. Therefore, the "because" in the rulebook should be an "and" -- worshipping gods and having the character class priest are independent concepts, and the elves have neither.

Therefore, I think elves manifestly can worship gods, in the sense of having parties where the guest of honor is imaginary, but they choose not to because they know there's no point. They can get plenty of magic without saying dead humans are nifty, and they don't like humans, especially the ones who led the fight against them at Deismaar, so I think elves view Haelyn cultists the way modern Americans would view Charles Manson cultists: dangerous lunatics who can be trusted only to betray and murder your family.

My own feeling is that the best way to model this in terms of character classes is to say that the people called druids (i.e., people who lead worship services to Erik) have the class called priest or cleric, with the specification that they worship Erik rather than Avani or the others (much like clerics of Obad-Hai in 3e Greyhawk); on the other hand, the class called druid (i.e., those people who get their magical powers directly from nature) is by far a better description of the Sidhelien than is doing research in libraries with wierd formulas from strange books and alchemical apparatus (the traditional style of the people with the wizard class). Therefore, I say elves don't have levels in PHB wizard, they have levels in PHB druid -- but in the game world, other people in Cerilia call elves wizards and call Erik's priests druids (which I grant is confusing, but I think is the best way to make sense of the setting and the rules at the same time). In my own 3e game, I just make the PHB druid the elven racial class, which no non-elves can access, and I give Erik's worship-leaders the PHB cleric class, with domains Plant, Animal and Earth. My 2e mechanic is more complicated to explain, but basically works the same way. I think "druid" is the name of a social role, not a character class, just as I think of the word "paladin".

The Sidhelien are plugged into nature's magic (mebhaighl) far more deeply than any other creature (garradalaighs aside), and thematically shouldn't be studying spellbooks in dusty indoor laboratories, so I think the setting of Cerilia is measurably enhanced if we make their primary character class the one PHB calls druid rather than the one PHB calls wizard. They choose not to worship gods because they know they don't need to -- they can get their powers either way -- and worshipping the same dead humans who killed your uncle is the height of bad taste.

[Rowan]

Elves couldn't have worshipped Azrai because they didn't know who/what he was until Deismaar; when they learned of that deception, most changed sides.


I agree that the Druid spell list is highly appropriate for elves, but I disagree that elves shouldn't be anything like traditional arcane spellcasters. They're not as wild and nature-focused as fey in the canon; that's why the Seelie are different. Instead, they build fixed structures (all those elven towers and ruins referred to frequently), forge kingdoms and have nobility of some kind. Again, they seem more like Tolkien's elves than like fey.

That would allow for elven wizards. I solve the problem by letting elves be wizards who have access to the entire druid spell list (also demonstrating that they have greater knowledge of spells--more spells overall--than any other race), but only access to anti-undead necromancy, and social restrictions limiting Evocation spells and even to some extent Summoning spells to rare occasions.

I've never liked the Sorcerer class, personally, and felt that, while it talks about instinctive magic, it's way too restrictive for elves--not enough spells known for them to be "masters of magic." I also hate spell preparation (hoping they fix that by dumping the "Vancian" magic system in 4e). So I just let elves cast any spells known spontaneously (I actually use a system like spell points, but you could still use slots), or give them Spell Mastery at every level and let them cast those spells spontaneously.

As for favored class, I say it's Bard. I figure that the versatility of the Bard, the spell selection, focus on song, Lore, etc. is so fitting to the elf that most elves (even "commoners") are Bards of some level.

Just my solutions.

[Thelandrin]

So, spontaneous wizards with druid spells? That class'll be easy to design

I designed a quick feat to allow an Elf to become a druid without worshipping Erik and without getting regency from temples, but that was the extent of my manipulations.

[kgauck]

If we're talking spell lists, then sure, I agree that elves are druids, and I call them taelinri. I've we're talking class features than I disagree, because of all the druid class features, they are either totally inappropriate for elves, or the elves have them as racial features. Certainly some of these could be taelinri class features and everyone has enough taelinri levels to gave them, but that only goes so far.

The core druid class feature aside from spellcasting and the sidhe-like ones, is wildshape, and this is all over the Rjurik cultural stuff, and absent from the elves.

Rather I prefer a taelinri class that is like a wizard class (mostly metamagic feats) with a druid and elemental spell list, and the elves have the racial features of nature stride, and so on.

Of course taelinri spend their time around source manifestations, and advising sidhe lords, teaching the young, and not in labratories, libraries, or such scholarly stuff.

[geeman]

At 11:15 AM 1/14/2008, kgauck wrote:

>If we`re talking spell lists, then sure, I agree that elves are
>druids, and I call them taelinri. I`ve we`re talking class features
>than I disagree, because of all the druid class features, they are
>either totally inappropriate for elves, or the elves have them as
>racial features. [snip]
>...
>The core druid class feature aside from spellcasting and the
>sidhe-like ones, is wildshape, and this is all over the Rjurik
>cultural stuff, and absent from the elves.

Agreed. The D&D druid character class isn`t appropriate for the
Sidhe for several reasons, not the least of which is their class
features. There are certain commonalities in the way they both
fetishize nature, but on the whole the druid form is so... well,
human. I like to extend the character classes into new and sometimes
divergent ways. For instance, I`ve argued in the past that there
should be paladin character classes for just about all of the
Cerilian gods. But I`d not argue that there should be Sidhelien
paladins.... Aside from the fact that I see the difference between
druids and priests of Erik to be significant (if somewhat difficult
to grasp from a game mechanical POV) the Sidhe are IMO simply meant
not to have the capacity to worship in that way.

>Rather I prefer a taelinri class that is like a wizard class (mostly
>metamagic feats) with a druid and elemental spell list, and the
>elves have the racial features of nature stride, and so on.
>
>Of course taelinri spend their time around source manifestations,
>and advising sidhe lords, teaching the young, and not in
>labratories, libraries, or such scholarly stuff.

The Taelinri are a good equivalent in Sidhelien culture for the
priests of Erik in Rjurik lands or, for that matter, priests in
general amongst the elves. They are described as having a similar
role. Their simple existence is also a pretty good argument against
Sidhelien priests because if there could be/were such a thing as
elves who could cast divine magics then they`d likely replace the
Taelinri pretty quickly given the actual roles of those classes game
mechanically and from the POV of the setting`s background dynamics.

What kinds of feats and spell list do you use to portray the taelinri?

Gary

[Rowan]

I agree that druid class features don't work for Sidhe. That's why I limit to just adding the druid spell list to the wizard list. No RP from temples or anything like that either.

Between these wizards, rangers, and bards, you've got a pretty magical elven society.

[geeman]

At 05:19 AM 1/14/2008, ryancaveney wrote:

>I agree that many of the ideals of which the gods are patrons are
>vitally important to the Sidhelien, but I sincerely doubt they care
>at all about (or at least have any positive opinion of) any of the
>current generation of human gods. There are elves alive who are
>much older than Erik, Ruornil, Avani, et al., may well have known
>them personally, were on the battlefield just 1524 years ago when
>they died, and a few may in fact have killed those human champions
>themselves. If they did worship anybody, it would be the old gods
>(Reynir, Vorynn, Basaia, et al.), or some other set entirely (Manwe
>and Varda, Corellon and Sehanine, or whatever) rather than the new
>ones (who they view basically as Sid and Nancy -- or Kurt and
>Courtney for you youngsters out there).

I would agree that the elves attitude towards the new gods would be
influenced by Sidhelien immortality. They would look upon them as
"newcomers" as it were. But I don`t think that attitude is
substantially different from their attitude towards the old gods, who
were "contemporaries" more than "gods" and that it isn`t really an
attitude per se so much as it is a fundamental inability. We don`t
have reams of material on the antebellum period of Cerilia, but there
is a good amount of text that addresses this pretty directly, and
there are no examples of historical Sidhelien priests either, and as
was noted if they could have worshipped the gods in the way that
humans can (by becoming priests) then wouldn`t that have at least
occurred when they started following Azrai by the thousands? There`s
no description of them worshipping ANY of the old gods. In fact,
that inability is described as being the cause of their decline.

There is some suggestion that the Sidhe are interested in an abstract
force of Nature, and that could take the role of some old, old
gods. But, again, there`s no suggestion that they worship that force
of nature in the way that humans worship the gods. Even as they rely
on the mystical Land`s Choice as part of their inheritance structure,
they do not worship it in any sense. Of course, one could homebrew a
sort of abstract godly concept and use that as the basis for elves
employing divine magics and having access to a druid character class,
but that strikes me as a direct contradiction of one of the few
actually hard and fast rules in the Birthright setting....

Gary