Avanil

[ShadowMoon]

My own sense is that they, in medieval fashion, controlled the economy through excessive regulation and taxation as well. In game terms, they owned the guilds, but made less money per holding. There seems to be a lot of color to the effect that guilders are on the rise, and that their role is new. Who then controlled these holdings previously? If the medieval world is our model, the crown.

Or Law holdings perhaps...

[Dcolby]

Or Law holdings perhaps...

On the question of holdings other than Land controlled by the Emperor, I would tend to think that Law Holdings would be the most valued and form the greater portion of Imperial Holdings outside the Emperors personal demense.

From a pure Game mechanic viewpoint Law holdings can be used to oppose most other sorts of holdings. Seize the Income of those holdings that exist already, and lacking law holdings a rival cannot raise troops save for expensive and unreliable mercs.

Why run a guild or church when a law holding can counter both of these types and loot those that do not support the "law". Just my own take..

[ShadowMoon]

On the question of holdings other than Land controlled by the Emperor, I would tend to think that Law Holdings would be the most valued and form the greater portion of Imperial Holdings outside the Emperors personal demense.

From a pure Game mechanic viewpoint Law holdings can be used to oppose most other sorts of holdings. Seize the Income of those holdings that exist already, and lacking law holdings a rival cannot raise troops save for expensive and unreliable mercs.

Why run a guild or church when a law holding can counter both of these types and loot those that do not support the "law". Just my own take..

ditto...

[dalor]

Very true...they were most often figureheads, until
the advent of the modern era really...and now they are
back to being figureheads.

My point was only that a national leader can lead
without having lands...even in a feudal system.

[kgauck]

Very true...they were most often figureheads, until
the advent of the modern era really...My point was only that a national leader can lead without having lands...even in a feudal system.

In the modern era, vast bureaucracies can inforce the impersonal will of the state, which can make a figurehead appear powerful. But it is the inertia and raison d'etre of the organization that keep it going, not the desires of a leader. Leaders who oppose the bureaucracy can destroy themselves.

"It must be considered that there is nothing more difficult to carry out, nor more doubtful of success, nor more dangerous to handle, than to initiate a new order of things. For the reformer has enemies in all those who profit by the old order, and only lukewarm defenders in all those who would profit by the new order, this lukewarmness arising partly from fear of their adversaries, who have the laws in their favour; and partly from the incredulity of mankind, who do not truly believe in anything new until they have had actual experience of it. Thus it arises that on every opportunity for attacking the reformer, his opponents do so with the zeal of partisans, the others only defend him half-heartedly, so that between them he runs great danger."

[kgauck]

I am quite sure that the Emperor ought to have controlled law holdings. Its hard to take any regent seriously who pretends to domination who does not control the law.

But when measuring the Emperor (or any soveriegn) against his many vassals, can we not presume that they too own some land and some law? If so we are back to a presumption that he can be overawed by many recalcitrant vassals. Control of guilds and dominance of the church is required to give us the power of a great prince.

Of course this is a default position. Certain eras might have seen a weak emperor or a particularly activist temple.

[Autarkis]

It could also be the fact that the Roele line is related directly to a god, and not any god, the patron god of his people. That has alot of clout in a game where miracles happen because the gods will it.

[Dcolby]

I am quite sure that the Emperor ought to have controlled law holdings. Its hard to take any regent seriously who pretends to domination who does not control the law.

But when measuring the Emperor (or any soveriegn) against his many vassals, can we not presume that they too own some land and some law? If so we are back to a presumption that he can be overawed by many recalcitrant vassals. Control of guilds and dominance of the church is required to give us the power of a great prince.

Of course this is a default position. Certain eras might have seen a weak emperor or a particularly activist temple.

I agree, it is very likely certain that no matter how hard we try to come up with an all powerful Emperor who could not and would not be challenged it is extremely unlikely that every Emperor had full control and measure of his empire.

In fact history provides very few "Great" Rulers (comparitively to ones that are more or less figureheads) no matter what system of Gov't that are above challenge or instances of being outmanuvered politicaly. Most rulers then, now, and in fantasy settings are masters of the deal and compromise in order to enjoy any success.

The Lands and Holdings of the Emperor would have waxed and waned with the ability of the sitting Emperor.

Certainly there were in the line of Roele a few Emperors that simply let the empire run itself and faded away into comfortable obscurity.

[dalor]

The Japanese Feudal Govts (the various Shogunate families) WERE a vast bureaucracy.

I think you missed my entire point and have moved on to something else I wasn`t even talking about.

I`m saying that the Roele family did not need lands that belonged only to them. Did they have any? I`m sure they did...but the idea of a Divine Dynasty is more realistic in a Fantasy Game (if you can pardon the seeming paradox) than in our real world.

The Roele Empire could have been run by an Emperor who used his direct relationship and family ties with Haelyn to easily keep his nobles in line. Who in their right mind would go against a family directly related to the very god they called on in battle...and nearly all other things as well?

The fact that every noble was with little doubt invested by a Priest who belonged to the church of the Imperial Family`s direct relation would be a primary facet in every man`s thinking. The fact that the Roele`s had a True Bloodline no doubt meant that they were literally looked upon as near-gods at the least.

Did the Roele Emperors have land? Without a doubt. It can`t be overlooked though that religion played a significant part in their rule and their early ideas of "Manifest Destiny"...If Haelyn were the King of the Gods, why not should his own people be lords over all others?

Religion no doubt played even more a role in the affairs of the Anuirean Empire than it ever did in the Pope`s tenuous hold over Europe until the time of the Reformation Movement.

Not only did the Emperor rule as a Temporal Emperor, but he was the direct relation to a God that was the God of an entire people...and I`m sure that is exactly how the various Temples to Haelyn taught it. Were the Catholic Pope`s one continuous family of decent from Jesus himself would be the only way to compare the two...and obviously they were not.

So I second the idea that once there were no more Roele`s to sit on the throne, it is little wonder the Empire has never recovered: the entire idea that Gods ruled the people was shattered and with so much doubt then in place there was no hope for the Empire to survive.

Thanks for the quote by the way, its always good to read the thoughts of other people...who are you quoting?

[ShadowMoon]

And keep in mind, that back then there was only one Haelyn temple, the Imperial Temple, and within the Empire it was the superior of faiths, and recognised as a governing religious institution of the Empire (like a State Religion in present realms). So I am pretty sure that Imperial Temple sticked with Roeles. Roeles were like earthly manifestation of their overlord, and their protectors from the day one.

And I don't believe Emperors controled Temple holdings directly at anytime, though they had much influence within the Temple, and probably many of Roele's house were High Priests (like younger brothers, etc.). But I am sure that Temple swore their allegiance and signed a writ of vassalage to the Emperor.

Probably similar scenario went for Guilds, ie. Imperial Guild managed the economy of the Empire, and again there were probably some of Roele's blood that were Guild Masters, but Emperors never had any Guild holdings. Again they were most probably vassals of the Imperial seat.

And all landed rulers within the Empire were vassals of the Iron Throne.

All "court" Wizards swore their allegiance to the Royal (Imperial) College of Sorcery, the sole center of the legal arcane society. College of Sorcery was under direct sponsorship of the Iron Throne and swore the oath of vassalage to the Emperor.

What I am saying is that the Emperor is a single govermental body, and he never had Temple and Guild holdings let alone Sources, only Law holdings, colonial assets and lands before Godswar with Imperial City and some surrounding territory (Anuire province) remaining. But Imperial Temple, and Imperial Guild were vassals to the Iron Throne, as well as remaining landed rulers.

Emperors commanded Imperial Legion that was elite (praetorian-like) army, with a full support of the Knights of Haelyn. So no matter that main bulk of Anuirean military was commanded and mustered by various nobles, Imperial seat was never defenseless, nor easy to conquer either by mundane or magical means or through the diplomacy.

Besides not many nobles would turn against their liege openly, because they would go directly against their own right to rule their realm, as well as against their patron Haelyn. So plots and schemes were always present, but Imperial position of Roeles was never seriously endangered.

Till Boeruine started the coup with the help of Michael Roele's older sister. But Michael dealt with that properly, though his sister made a pact with the Gorgon later, thus leading Michael Roele to his doom on the fields of Gorgon's Crown, and leaving the Empire without a heir, which lead to fall of the Imperial line, and the Empire.


Slightly-Off Topic:

I never understood how Boeruine got away with this, I mean its a terribile stain on their name, especially now when the "myth" of the great Empire is something that makes Anuirean hearts swell with pride.