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  1. #1
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    At 07:28 PM 2/19/2003 +0100, you wrote:
    > Lord Shade wrote:
    >
    >>>Better Vassals? ;-)
    >>>Taeghas and Brosengae were on Boeruines side during Michale Roeles
    >>>ascension to the throne - they can change again sides. And as both are
    >>>constantly on the brink of civil war Avan can be kept busy by this alone
    >>>(if he has only Magician lieutenants and not good diplomats to send...)
    >>>
    >>I think Avanil has better vassals. Let`s look at it this way:
    >>
    >>Avanil Boeruine
    >>------ --------
    >>Taeghas = Talinie
    >>PAI = Arien Borthein
    >>WIT > NIT
    >>Harald Khor = Arlen Innis
    >>Mieres/AV
    >>Brosengae/EM
    >>As written Talinie and Taeghas are both pretty reliable and comparable in
    >>size. Arlen Innis is higher level, but Harald Khorien has more
    >>sources/bloodline and therefore more RP, so I count them as pretty much
    >>equal. AB and PAI both kind of suck, as their bloodlines are small. WIT is
    >>an awesomely powerful domain on its own (huge holdings and income,
    >>4th-largest non-awnshegh bloodline in all of Anuire) and seems to be
    >>extremely reliable, and clearly superior to NIT. On top of this advantage,
    >>Avan has 2 unreliable vassals, Brosengae and Mieres, that at least for the
    >>time being provide him with tribute and therefore a
    >> bigger advantage over
    >>Boeruine.
    >>
    >When adding Talinie, you forget Torele Anviras who is loyal to Talinie
    >and could be counted to help when it would be needed.
    >Also the Hidden Temple of Cuiraceen in strong in Boeruine and I would
    >add them as allies to Boeruine if it comes to an Avan-Boeruine war.
    >Wasn┤t somewhere mentinoed that Aeric Boeruine counts himself as member
    >of that temple while being the liege lord of the NIT?

    He`s loyal to Talinie. Would he help Boeruine push for the Imperial City?
    For that matter, Mhistecai would help defend Mieres too if it was invaded.

    >>As for the Magician lieutenant issue, you are responding to a different
    >>thread and I`ll rebut your point there.
    >>
    >>>Mieres could be cut off at any time the seadrake wishes and the governor
    >>>does not seem overly trustworthy. Something interesting that was brought
    >>>up in COG II: The temples of Eloele in Mieres (a vassal of Avan) could
    >>>easily be used to discredit Avan as next emperor - after all the Emperor
    >>>is the protector of Anuire, of which Haelyn is patron! And AVAN allows
    >>>the temples of the goddess of thiefs prosper in his vassals lands? ;-)
    >>>
    >>You could make that point, but I doubt that who becomes the next Emperor of
    >>Anuire is going to be decided by who has a vassal with a temple of Eloele
    >>in his lands.
    >>Besides, in many places in the books, the designers imply that there are
    >>unwanted holdings in several realms, and the rulers have tried to get rid
    >>of them and can`t. Just because a holding exists in a particular place
    >>doesn`t mean a regent wants it there or is actively supporting it.
    >>In PBeMs, IMHO DMs never do a good job of portraying the real consequences
    >>of invading your own provinces and burning down holdings. I would think
    >>such a horrible action would result in complete hatred from the populace,
    >>if you burn down temples that they have been attending for years, or guilds
    >>that employed them and all their neighbors. If such an action was really as
    >>easy as PBeMs make it, no landed regent would ever have an unwanted holding
    >>in his realm for longer
    >>than 1 or 2 seasons. Why then do the published
    >>realms have unwanted holdings in almost every other domain?
    >>
    >Because the rules do not prevent it and occupation and
    >destruction/divestion is easier than several contests.

    ...that`s exactly my point. If destruction is so much easier, why do nearly
    50% of realms allow unwanted holdings to exist within their borders?

    >>Case in point - do you think that because the Brotherhood of Khet or the
    >>Society of the Serpent exist in a number of Khinasi kingdoms, the rulers
    >>want them there or intentionally permit their existence? How about the
    >>White Hand of Kriestal in Danigau, or the Mhor`s law holdings in Ghoere or
    >>Gavin Tael`s holdings in Mhoried? Or the bandit guild in Berhagen? Or
    >>Kalien`s holdings in Alamie and Medoere? There are many more examples.
    >>
    >I understand your point. Some Rjurik realms have to add to your list
    >guild holdings of the White Witch, about which they are not even
    >informed - while the holdings are in their own lands. That is impossible
    >in a PBEM unless the DM is super-human and devious...
    >
    >However even the presence of such holdings could be used by Avan┤s
    >opponents to show that he has done nothing/not enough to get rid of
    >them. Eloele is after all an enemy of Haelyn - even Rhobher Nicholair as
    >a firm supporter of Avan would have a hard time arguing to do nothing
    >against that temples. Not to act or not to succeed could be pointed out
    >as a failure - of a person who wants to rule a whole empire, and can┤t
    >even bring law and order to his own vassals lands? ;-)

    Yeah, but if you were a regent, how convincing would that argument be to
    you? Sure you can use it for political ammunition, but most likely if you
    were neutral you would see that BS for what it is.

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  2. #2
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    As a result of this thread, I`started a war between the (NPC) realms of
    Avanil and Boeruine IMC - and none of the players really care how it goes.

    /Carl


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  3. #3
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Lord Shade" <lordshade@SOFTHOME.NET>
    Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 9:07 PM


    >> Not to act or not to succeed could be pointed out as a failure
    >> - of a person who wants to rule a whole empire, and can┤t
    >> even bring law and order to his own vassals lands? ;-)
    >
    > Yeah, but if you were a regent, how convincing would that argument
    > be to you? Sure you can use it for political ammunition, but most
    > likely if you were neutral you would see that BS for what it is.

    [Shrug] Maybe, but this kind of thinking is very period and justified the
    expulsion of Moors, Jews, suppression of ethnic minorities, attacks on
    heritics from the Lollards to the Hussites to the wars of Religion.
    Impolitic monoplies were revoked, merchants evicted, and trade patterns
    altered. All of this for reason of state. So, do Cerilian rulers opperate
    on the basis that a good ruler has eliminated unfriendly holdings? I
    certainly think so. IMO, the reason the map doesn`t look that way is
    because its really difficult to actually pull something like that off.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  4. #4
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Stephen Starfox" <stephen_starfox@YAHOO.SE>
    Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 12:53 AM


    > As a result of this thread, I`started a war between the (NPC) realms of
    > Avanil and Boeruine IMC - and none of the players really care how it goes.

    I had the same experience when I used that as well. Of course it did create
    a certain reality (as opposed to wax museum) quality.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  5. #5
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    Stephen Starfox wrote:

    >As a result of this thread, I`started a war between the (NPC) realms of
    >Avanil and Boeruine IMC - and none of the players really care how it goes.
    >/Carl
    >
    Then get the players involved - either side of the war could send them a
    request to declare for them and their just cause... Or suffer the
    consequences to be counted among the enemy.

    Countrys like Ghoere can use the absence of two of the largest armies of
    Anuire who are busy fighting themselfs to try to invade a neighbour.

    The realms like Five Peaks, Rhuobhe, Spiderfell, Thuazor and so on could
    use the time to raid their neighbours, knowing that the major armies are
    occupied.

    Prices to muster armies, muster mercenaries, buy stuff of all sorts
    quickly rise to enourmos hights due to the demand in the war...
    bye
    Michael Romes

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  6. #6
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    Stephen Starfox wrote:

    >As a result of this thread, I`started a war between the (NPC) realms of
    >Avanil and Boeruine IMC - and none of the players really care how it goes.
    >/Carl
    >
    Then get the players involved - either side of the war could send them a
    request to declare for them and their just cause... Or suffer the
    consequences to be counted among the enemy.

    Countrys like Ghoere can use the absence of two of the largest armies of
    Anuire who are busy fighting themselfs to try to invade a neighbour.

    The realms like Five Peaks, Rhuobhe, Spiderfell, Thuazor and so on could
    use the time to raid their neighbours, knowing that the major armies are
    occupied.

    Prices to muster armies, muster mercenaries, buy stuff of all sorts
    quickly rise to enourmos hights due to the demand in the war...
    bye
    Michael Romes

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  7. #7
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    On Wed, 19 Feb 2003 21:07:15 -0600, Lord Shade <lordshade@SOFTHOME.NET> wrote:

    >At 07:28 PM 2/19/2003 +0100, you wrote:
    >> Lord Shade wrote:
    ...
    >>When adding Talinie, you forget Torele Anviras who is loyal to Talinie
    >>and could be counted to help when it would be needed.
    >>Also the Hidden Temple of Cuiraceen in strong in Boeruine and I would
    >>add them as allies to Boeruine if it comes to an Avan-Boeruine war.
    >>Wasn┤t somewhere mentinoed that Aeric Boeruine counts himself as member
    >>of that temple while being the liege lord of the NIT?
    >
    >He`s loyal to Talinie. Would he help Boeruine push for the Imperial City?
    >For that matter, Mhistecai would help defend Mieres too if it was invaded.

    Torele Anviras is loyal to Talinie, and Talinie is the vassal of Boeruine.
    In my opinion, if another major conflict would arise in which Talinies
    troops would be involved, as in the book War, then Anviras would be with them.

    Mhistecai? I remember to have read that he sees Mieres as HIS realm - that
    his prime reason for not taking it by force is that he wants not to damage
    what he sees as his property and his army... In my opinion he is more likely
    to start a civil war to gain the rulership of some provinces of Mieres, as
    soon as a major war starts which distracts Avanil.

    >...that`s exactly my point. If destruction is so much easier, why do nearly
    >50% of realms allow unwanted holdings to exist within their borders?

    Because they are NPC┤s in a world which has more difficulties than the
    domain rules show. They work even with their opponents, because sometimes
    they have no choice. They are too occupied with other affairs so that they
    can┤t care about all holdings in their lands. Because they are noble knights
    and lords who do not bother with the affaris of dirty money earned by filthy
    merchants - all that is sadly very often ignored by players.

    >Yeah, but if you were a regent, how convincing would that argument be to
    >you? Sure you can use it for political ammunition, but most likely if you
    >were neutral you would see that BS for what it is.

    It would be convincing for most priests of Haelyn - law and order are the
    fundaments of empire. And it would be logical - someone who can┤t keep his
    own house clean, will likely be unable to do it on a larger scale. And it
    certainly would be one good argument for the Imperial Chamberlain - after
    500 years he certainly has used up dozens of arguments why he has not
    finally crowned the next emperor.
    bye
    Michael Romes

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  8. #8
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    On Wed, 19 Feb 2003 21:07:15 -0600, Lord Shade <lordshade@SOFTHOME.NET> wrote:

    >At 07:28 PM 2/19/2003 +0100, you wrote:
    >> Lord Shade wrote:
    ...
    >>When adding Talinie, you forget Torele Anviras who is loyal to Talinie
    >>and could be counted to help when it would be needed.
    >>Also the Hidden Temple of Cuiraceen in strong in Boeruine and I would
    >>add them as allies to Boeruine if it comes to an Avan-Boeruine war.
    >>Wasn┤t somewhere mentinoed that Aeric Boeruine counts himself as member
    >>of that temple while being the liege lord of the NIT?
    >
    >He`s loyal to Talinie. Would he help Boeruine push for the Imperial City?
    >For that matter, Mhistecai would help defend Mieres too if it was invaded.

    Torele Anviras is loyal to Talinie, and Talinie is the vassal of Boeruine.
    In my opinion, if another major conflict would arise in which Talinies
    troops would be involved, as in the book War, then Anviras would be with them.

    Mhistecai? I remember to have read that he sees Mieres as HIS realm - that
    his prime reason for not taking it by force is that he wants not to damage
    what he sees as his property and his army... In my opinion he is more likely
    to start a civil war to gain the rulership of some provinces of Mieres, as
    soon as a major war starts which distracts Avanil.

    >...that`s exactly my point. If destruction is so much easier, why do nearly
    >50% of realms allow unwanted holdings to exist within their borders?

    Because they are NPC┤s in a world which has more difficulties than the
    domain rules show. They work even with their opponents, because sometimes
    they have no choice. They are too occupied with other affairs so that they
    can┤t care about all holdings in their lands. Because they are noble knights
    and lords who do not bother with the affaris of dirty money earned by filthy
    merchants - all that is sadly very often ignored by players.

    >Yeah, but if you were a regent, how convincing would that argument be to
    >you? Sure you can use it for political ammunition, but most likely if you
    >were neutral you would see that BS for what it is.

    It would be convincing for most priests of Haelyn - law and order are the
    fundaments of empire. And it would be logical - someone who can┤t keep his
    own house clean, will likely be unable to do it on a larger scale. And it
    certainly would be one good argument for the Imperial Chamberlain - after
    500 years he certainly has used up dozens of arguments why he has not
    finally crowned the next emperor.
    bye
    Michael Romes

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  9. #9
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    At 09:49 AM 2/20/2003 -0800, you wrote:
    >On Wed, 19 Feb 2003 21:07:15 -0600, Lord Shade <lordshade@SOFTHOME.NET>
    wrote:
    >
    >>At 07:28 PM 2/19/2003 +0100, you wrote:
    >>> Lord Shade wrote:
    >...
    >>>When adding Talinie, you forget Torele Anviras who is loyal to Talinie
    >>>and could be counted to help when it would be needed.
    >>>Also the Hidden Temple of Cuiraceen in strong in Boeruine and I would
    >>>add them as allies to Boeruine if it comes to an Avan-Boeruine war.
    >>>Wasn┤t somewhere mentinoed that Aeric Boeruine counts himself as member
    >>>of that temple while being the liege lord of the NIT?
    >>
    >>He`s loyal to Talinie. Would he help Boeruine push for the Imperial City?
    >>For that matter, Mhistecai would help defend Mieres too if it was invaded.
    >
    >Torele Anviras is loyal to Talinie, and Talinie is the vassal of Boeruine.
    >In my opinion, if another major conflict would arise in which Talinies
    >troops would be involved, as in the book War, then Anviras would be with
    them.

    Ruins of Empire, p. 23: "Talinie has declared Boeruine the rightful ruler
    of Avanil, but commits no troops or gold to the Archduke`s cause." I
    wouldn`t call that a great vassal, would you? I didn`t realize that at
    first, I would actually now revise my estimate of Talinie downward, so that
    Taeghas > Talinie.

    btw, even if you want to count TA as a vassal of Talinie, Taeghas has his
    own vassal guilder, so that evens out again. Added to Darien Avan`s 3
    vassal guilds, that makes a total of 4 on the Avanese side.

    >Mhistecai? I remember to have read that he sees Mieres as HIS realm - that
    >his prime reason for not taking it by force is that he wants not to damage
    >what he sees as his property and his army... In my opinion he is more likely
    >to start a civil war to gain the rulership of some provinces of Mieres, as
    >soon as a major war starts which distracts Avanil.

    I think Mhistecai would defend Mieres if Boeruine forces invaded. p.16 does
    indicate that Vaumel and Mhistecai sometimes work together.



    >>...that`s exactly my point. If destruction is so much easier, why do nearly
    >>50% of realms allow unwanted holdings to exist within their borders?
    >
    >Because they are NPC┤s in a world which has more difficulties than the
    >domain rules show. They work even with their opponents, because sometimes
    >they have no choice. They are too occupied with other affairs so that they
    >can┤t care about all holdings in their lands. Because they are noble knights
    >and lords who do not bother with the affaris of dirty money earned by filthy
    >merchants - all that is sadly very often ignored by players.

    Okay good, in that case it seems that you and I actually agree here. I also
    think that it should be much harder to invade your own provinces than the
    domain rules indicate.

    >>Yeah, but if you were a regent, how convincing would that argument be to
    >>you? Sure you can use it for political ammunition, but most likely if you
    >>were neutral you would see that BS for what it is.
    >
    >It would be convincing for most priests of Haelyn - law and order are the
    >fundaments of empire. And it would be logical - someone who can┤t keep his
    >own house clean, will likely be unable to do it on a larger scale. And it
    >certainly would be one good argument for the Imperial Chamberlain - after
    >500 years he certainly has used up dozens of arguments why he has not
    >finally crowned the next emperor.
    >bye
    >Michael Romes

    In the end, do you think the word of the Chamberlain matters that much? By
    law, does the Chamberlain crown the Emperor? The reason he has influence is
    because things are pretty balanced at the moment, with no contender having
    a clear edge. If one contender was able to defeat the others, would the
    Chamberlain be able to stop him from becoming Emperor? The first Anuirean
    Empire was created by force, what makes you think the second won`t be?

    History and realpolitik both show that in the end, the guy with the bigger
    guns wins.

    A good example will be if the US proceeds with a war against Iraq, despite
    the *political* (meaning words) objections of 2 of its close allies, France
    and Germany.

    Now if France and Germany had the guns to back up their position, and said
    that they wouldn`t tolerate an invasion of Iraq, the US would soften its
    tone.

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  10. #10
    Senior Member Beruin's Avatar
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    Lord Shade wrote:
    >>History and realpolitik both show that in the end, the guy with the bigger
    guns wins.<<

    I disagree. RW examples: Russians in Afghanistan, Americans in Vietnam, the American independence, Spain vs. Netherlands, the Armada, Napoleon, the Fall of the Roman Empire, the Persian invasion of Greece, the Persian defence against Alexander, Gandhi.

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