Ryan Caveney wrote:

> IMO, druids should be much better against undead than priests of any other
> Cerilian god save Ruornil, but that`s sort of another discussion.

Let it never be said that I wouldn`t occasionally take up an interesting
tangent. First off, I`d throw Avani up as another hater of the undead and
shadow world. Some of this is archtypal (undead being weakened or destroyed by
sunlight), some of it comes from Avani`s description of destroying shadow by
her light. Avani is Erik`s wife, and I think true undead combat in Erik`s
temples comes from Avani or Ruornil.

> I see undead as fundamentally unnatural, so the guardians
> of the natural order should be powerful opponents.

I have two issues here, one is game balance the other is material from Blood
Spawn. Druids are pretty powerful as they are. That said, I do consider
animal shapechanging, turning of undead, and even rage to be divine energy
channeled by humans. So, I do have a feat that allows druids to turn undead by
using one of their shapechange uses. So far powerful barbarians are limited to
a feat that allows a single shapechange by giving up a rage, but this all
reflects Rjurik stuff. Adding turning of undead without costing something of
the druid takes an already pretty heafty class and makes it mightier. Also,
from Blood Spawn (the Shadows World sup) the origin of the standard and shadow
worlds as one makes me tend to look at the Shadow world as a shadow version of
nature, not at all unnatural, but dark nature. This also nicely explains why
Erik is a good aligned druidical diety. It also matches the sidhe connection
to the seelie.

> Haelyn should *command* rather than turn undead, in that he seems to me
> the sort of god who would compel obedience and service even after death.
> He wouldn`t be keen on free-willed undead, but automatons should be right
> up his alley -- as indeed should any form of spirit ancestors fighting to
> aid their descendants in time of great distress.

I see your point, but would distinguish between undead as either a mindless or
malevelent force, and undying spirits who now reside in the heavens with Haelyn
and return to perform some duty, be it advise, or a celestial army. On the
other hand, undead my also cower differently, paying greater respect, more of a
bow than a cower to a priest of Haelyn.

> One of the few actual units of priests I think ought to exist
> should be a group of anti-undead paladin-types belonging to Rournil`s
> Celestial Spell, who hire themselves out (or just show up for
> philosophical reasons) to defend anyone being attacked by undead legions.

I think there are no units per se, but that any temple of sufficient size could
raise a unit. True, the Celestial Spell, or Life and Protection, AFAIC, might
go out to combat an undead legion for philosophical reasons. Larger temples of
Haelyn could send out priests to defend provinces with temples to Haelyn, or
fulfil liege agreements. I rather think temples of Cuiraecen would prefer to
give themselves blessings and fight off undead in the chaos of battle.

> My favorite kind for the UL, which I recall being very close to the
> results of the warcard-to-statblock calculation mentioned above, is the
> Dread Warrior (a FR entity I discovered in the Wizard`s Spell Compendium).
> Its 2e stat block is: AC 2 to 4; MV 9; HD 4; THAC0 17; #AT 1; Dmg by
> weapon +2; SW turned as shadows, Int low.

Thanks for the stat block. It is especially fitting to an undead warrior. I
think the proper BR conversion might be raising the dead at those battle fields
sometimes described as having think boundaries to the SW. The bodies are
present, some spirits lost to the SW are returned to their old bodies to fight
once more.

> This is the way I think it probably ought to work. OTOH, perhaps what we
> ought to say is akin to what you suggest for province regents: that a
> temple regent given in Ruins of Empire as a Priest 4 is better interpreted
> as more like an Aristocrat 6 / Priest 3, who has as subordinates a couple
> of Priest 8s who spend their time adventuring (or at least in a noble
> household casting Cure Disease regularly) rather than seeking political
> power inside the temple hierarchy.

I do imagine that regent clerics are mostly either Aristocrat/Priest, or
Expert/Priests, depending on where they came from. But I have generally kept
the Arist/Exp levels down to around 3, and just tacked on Priest as they are
printed. Most clerics are probabaly mostly Expert, with just a touch of Cleric
thrown in. They bless babies, marriages, and graves. Heal a bit, don`t do
much more than that. There are certainly also, adventurer clerics who may or
may not be blooded and have only a backround level in Aristocrat or Expert.
IMC, Concentration is an integral part of spellcasting, so Clerics who don`t
take some of these other classes can do little besides Concentration and
Knowledge (Religion).

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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