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  1. #1
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Zaor" <zaor81@HOTMAIL.COM>
    Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 4:00 PM

    > This is one of the ideas I use in my birthright games. The objetive is
    > to make all rulers more or less "equal" in power terms (and not the
    > landed ruler the most powerful and the rest being puppets, specially
    > the wizard).

    This is an interesting subject, and I was close to bringing it up on my own.
    I have structured my game so that the most powerful class is the one that
    typically gets two sources of regency. For example in Anuire the typical
    landed ruler is the most powerful, and this is reflected in his control of
    both provinces and law. In Brechtür, I have shifted dominance to the
    guilders, who are liable to own most of the law, and either control an
    occasional temple to Sera, or have a strong Sera temple as an ally.
    Obviously Brecht landed rulers, left with just provinces, fall back to the
    second rank of power. In Rjurik lands, because I give druids access to
    sources, the religious power of Erik`s church is very strong. They control
    soucres and temples, and because the development is as low as it is, tend to
    have more power than the landed rulers, many of whom share their law with
    their jarls and eorls. It just seems to make sence to do it this way. I
    find it a very elegant way to reinforce the cultural differences.

    This brings up my interpretation of the academy, a possible new holding
    type. My thinking was that if every class could have two hodling types at
    the very core of their class purpose, what about the arcane spellcaster?
    Mana is certainly one way to go, and I hope anyone who gives it a try will
    keep the list posted. But I though I would take a moment to further
    describe my idea about the academy. First of all its not just wizards
    training wizards. Its learned people teaching anyone who can pay. So its
    more like the independent or vernacular school system of the Renaissance.
    Now, the collection of the youth of the well to do in such a place, the role
    of educator, this was historically one of the church`s sources of power in
    Medieval Europe. Wizards, Bards, and Clerics could run an academy, and
    teach whatever they wanted, or what the local elite was willing to pay for.
    Its just a natural thing that wizards could do to collect some money and
    additional influence in local affairs. Just like any other holding, the
    ruler isn`t standing over students, the ruler directs others to perform the
    mission of the holding, in this case a school.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  2. #2
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    Hello,

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Kenneth Gauck" <kgauck@MCHSI.COM>
    To: <BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
    Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 2:04 AM
    Subject: Re: Balancing Realms (More than Mana)


    > This is an interesting subject, and I was close to bringing it up on my
    own.
    > I have structured my game so that the most powerful class is the one that
    > typically gets two sources of regency. For example in Anuire the typical
    > landed ruler is the most powerful, and this is reflected in his control of
    > both provinces and law.

    Yes, I think the subject has lot of interest. Well, I´ll talk about
    another change I´ve done (speaking about regents with two types of income).
    The same thought you had came to me for some other reasons:

    First: while designing a realm, I always had the same "scene": the
    non-landed regents (guilders, clerics and wizards), usually give some domain
    design points to the king to help him in the kingdom creation. While a king
    with 40 design points normally finish with a weak realm (IMO. The example in
    the rulebook is more or less that number if I don´t remember badly), another
    type of regent is fearsome. A guilder with 40 design points will have easily
    30 guild levels, more than most guilders in all anuire, bretchur and I think
    any other land (same goes with clerics and wizards).

    Secondly: while working the with the idea of mana, I came to the idea of
    having to develop the Magic Level. With the old rules, the magic level is
    always the maximun available to a province. I changed it to work like the
    Population level. A forest for example has level 0 Magic Level at the start,
    but a wizard can raise it up to level 7. You can´t have a source higher than
    the Magic Level. That way, I took out a little power I gave to wizards with
    the use of mana, and I try to do all regents more similar. Now, wizards
    weren´t so terrible while you designed a realm, because they had to pay
    Magic Level and Source Level, so they ended having more or less half they
    had with the normal rules.

    After that, I thought about doing something similar to balance guilds
    and temples: and then I added Comerce Levels and Faith Levels. So, I ended
    having 4 "base levels" (population, faith, comerce and magic) and 4 holdings
    that used them.

    Although the different "bases" are appart, you can´t have a level 1
    province and level a level 10 guild. You can have more guilds or temples
    than population, but only some more (I haven´t worked out the exact number.
    I´ll try double probably).

    The system works quite well while designing a realm (for my group and my
    style of gaming). And it doesn´t "upset" very much the normal rules. It has
    another side effect: all rulers gain more or less the same regency, but now
    from two different places (a part from the base and another part from the
    holding). Be aware that now I have four "types of kingdoms" (like always,
    but now it´s easier to draw them on maps).

    The only problem I had so far is the way of conquering enemy "bases"
    (population through war, but the rest I don´t know).

    Another side effect (and some other changes): what are the beneficts of
    owning "bases" (population gives income). So, I add a benefit to all the
    "bases":

    - Commerce: develop resources (I play with resources). Guilds earn money
    selling them: a variable income if they sell resources to the population
    (the holding income table from the rulebook) or a fixed one if they sell
    resources to other regents (trade routes).

    - Faith: earns divine mana. Temples earn GB (contributions from followers.
    They allow casting divine spells).

    - Magic: earns mana. Sources earn more mana (and allow casting realm spells,
    forging ley lines,...).

    - Population: earns GB. Law earns more GB (not sure about that change. Law
    gives several benefices in the normal rules).

    I have to work out some details, like a guilder using the resources of
    another guilder and similar interactions (temples earning money in other
    faith "bases",... Ideas welcome ;)

    > Mana is certainly one way to go, and I hope anyone who gives it a try will
    > keep the list posted.

    Sure I´ll do if someone has interest ;) I can say one thing from my test
    game: elves are fearsome. They earn lots and lots of mana. The pc playing
    the wizard (he is in the Sielwode) is using all his actions casting spell
    after spell, keeping enemy forces out of the forest and helping the kingdom.
    This is great as in all places they say that elves in Sielwode and
    Thuarievel keep enemies at bay thanks to magic (well, not only magic, but
    magic is a very important asset for them). But, he could also use it to
    wreak havoc on other realms (throught offensive spells or summoned armies),
    and most human wizards wouldn´t be able to face him (I don´t want to think
    what the Sayer of the elven realm in bretchur could do). When I play more
    I´ll see if elven magic is too powerful. Human wizards on the other hand
    seem balanced.

    > Its just a natural thing that wizards could do to collect some money and
    > additional influence in local affairs. Just like any other holding, the
    > ruler isn`t standing over students, the ruler directs others to perform
    the
    > mission of the holding, in this case a school.

    This holding makes much more sense than the Profession Action (sorry,
    don´t have my books here, and I have never used that action...). And allows
    the wizard much more interaction with the world than the typical "court
    wizard".

    Any idea about the GB income? Does it has several other effects? (help
    on diplomacy actions,...)

    Hope it wasn´t too boring ;)

    Vicente

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  3. #3
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    Hello!

    Zaor wrote:
    ...

    >While a king with 40 design points normally finish with a weak realm (IMO. The example in
    >the rulebook is more or less that number if I don´t remember badly), another
    >type of regent is fearsome. A guilder with 40 design points will have easily
    >30 guild levels, more than most guilders in all anuire, bretchur and I think
    >any other land (same goes with clerics and wizards).
    >
    A guilder with 40 domain points would have to roll very lucky or have
    probably a major bloodline.
    Domain design points as the 2E rulebook are bloodline strenght + 2d6
    (tainted), 2D8 (minor), 2D10 (major) or 2D12 (great)
    To have 40 points he would have to have for example rolled the maximum
    of 12 for a tainted bloodline with 28...
    Or more likely have a minor bloodline, rolled maximum 16 and a bloodline
    strenght of 24
    Most guilders have tainted or minor bloodlines - major bloodlines among
    merchants are rare, Guilder Kalien is one of them for example.
    With a major bloodline your player could if still lucky roll 20 and
    would have to have a major bloodline of 20 strength to get 40 domain
    points but still could not match Kalien´s 39 guild levels + 6 province +
    6 law levels = 51 domain points.
    bye
    Michael

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  4. #4
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    Hello,

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Michael Romes" <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE>
    To: <BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
    Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 6:31 AM
    Subject: Re: Balancing Realms (More than Mana)


    > A guilder with 40 domain points would have to roll very lucky or have
    > probably a major bloodline.

    Just as lucky as a land ruler.

    > Most guilders have tainted or minor bloodlines - major bloodlines among
    > merchants are rare, Guilder Kalien is one of them for example.

    Well, in the rulebook yes, but not when you are designing a realm. In
    the ruins of the empire everything is quite well balanced, but when a player
    design a new realm, a guilder normally has (IMO) more power than a land
    ruler. I had one a cleric of haelyn with great bloodline and his realm was
    impressive.

    > With a major bloodline your player could if still lucky roll 20 and
    > would have to have a major bloodline of 20 strength to get 40 domain
    > points but still could not match Kalien´s 39 guild levels + 6 province +
    > 6 law levels = 51 domain points.

    Endier is a great comercial realm, and Kalien is suposed to have worked
    a lot to achieve so many things. I can´t say what´s the normal number of
    design points for a new realm, but with 25 points a guilder could get (an
    example) 19 guild levels, a lieutenant, two trade routes, 10 gb and two
    contacts. With 25 points a land ruler could get 11 province levels (level 6
    and level 5 provinces), 7 law levels (just a little more than half the law),
    a lieutenant, 10 gb, two contacts, 2 infantry units and 2 archers (8gb) and
    a level 2 castle (if I don´t remember badly the rules). The guilder is
    earning more money, more regency,... That was my problem with the design
    rules. Of course if you use the regents that are in the ruins book
    everything is much more balanced, but well, my players love designing their
    own realms (and we have played also with nearly all regents in anuire (not
    in bretchur)). Greetings,

    Vicente

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