Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 31
  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Belgrade, Serbia
    Posts
    113
    Downloads
    46
    Uploads
    0

    Diemed: Barony or Duchy?

    Ruins of Empire describes Barony of Diemed ruled by Baron Heirl Diem.

    Various sources, however, state that Diemed was one of the most powerful Twelve Duchies from which Endier, Medoere, Ilien and Roesone seceded.

    I have never seen a good explanation of discrepancy.

    Heirl Diem is LN. I imagine him as a great legalist and traditionalist,which goes well with the Orthodox Imperial Temple. My idea is that Duchy of Diemed was divided into following domains:
    Barony of Diemed: Diemed and Endier, Duke's demesne
    Barony of Middle Diemed aka Medoere
    Barony of Eastern Diemed: Roesone without Bellam and Abbatuor

    When House Diem lost all its territories except for the ducal demesne itself, either Heirl Diem or his equally LN predecessor declared that neither he nor his successors will use the ducal title until the Imperial Duchy of Diemed has been restored to its former glory.

    Does this sound plausible? The wiki alternately refers to Diemed as barony and duchy. I would like to fix this and give the article some consistency. In the process, I would also like to add an paragraph with an explanation why one of the most powerful Twelve Duchies is now a barony. Does anyone know if there is any reference to Diemed in the novels? I've only read Iron Throne and I don't remember coming across any useful information about this. Anyone remember who is the earliest head of House Diem mentioned with the title of Baron in the official sources?
    Last edited by Nameless One; 05-19-2011 at 10:29 AM.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Jaleela's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    248
    Downloads
    30
    Uploads
    0
    The ranks of the peers and the classifications of domains in the game never made much sense and have caused quite a bit of debate over the years.

    I went with duchy. That is what Diemed was during the last gasp of the empire. I don't think a regent would willingly demote themselves in rank. Typically title stripping or demoting would be handed down from on high, not self inflicted.

    Baron is several steps down the peer roster from Duke, I doubt Heirl would have made himself of lower standing than other Imperial peers.

    I can't think of another Diem that was mentioned with the title of Baron before Heirl.
    d'estre bons et leaulx amis et vrais ensemble et de servir l'un 'autre envers et contre tous

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Belgrade, Serbia
    Posts
    113
    Downloads
    46
    Uploads
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaleela View Post

    Baron is several steps down the peer roster from Duke, I doubt Heirl would have made himself of lower standing than other Imperial peers.
    Baron may be several steps down from Duke in historical context, but I'm not aware of any Anuirean Imperial titles that stand between Duke and Baron. Please note that in Anuirean peer system Baron stand higher than a Count. It goes like Emperor => Duke => Baron => Count => minor nobility.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Jaleela's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    248
    Downloads
    30
    Uploads
    0
    Seems that breaking historical precedent causes confusion and that the titles have been almost completely randomized.

    Does Baron stand higher than a count? I've never really seen the hierarchy codified.

    I prefer to ground it in actuality: Emperor > Prince > Arch-duke > Duke > Earl / Count > Baron > minor nobility.

    My vote is still Duke over Baron.
    Last edited by Jaleela; 05-19-2011 at 03:29 PM.
    d'estre bons et leaulx amis et vrais ensemble et de servir l'un 'autre envers et contre tous

  5. #5
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    21
    Downloads
    7
    Uploads
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaleela View Post
    Seems that breaking historical precedent causes confusion and that the titles have been almost completely randomized.

    Does Baron stand higher than a count? I've never really seen the hierarchy codified.

    I prefer to ground it in actuality: Emperor > Prince > Arch-duke > Duke > Earl / Count > Baron > minor nobility.

    My vote is still Duke over Baron.
    Well, this is just the wiki but still

    http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/Baron

    Anyway, count = one province.
    Baron - several provinces.

    But I would go with duke aswell. no real point in him giving the title up, and it most certainly was a duchy, so. I would go with duke.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Belgrade, Serbia
    Posts
    113
    Downloads
    46
    Uploads
    0
    Ruins of Empire, page 7: Princes owed fealty to the Emperor, (arch)dukes to a prince, barons to a duke and counts to a baron.

    Player's Secrets of Roesone: all provinces excepts Caercas are Counties ruled by Counts, subject to the Baroness.

    I understand that some people would like to base Birthright on actual history as much as possible. I love history myself, but what attracts me to Birthright is its originality, not the fact that much of it is a copy of historical Earth. Of course, any opinion is welcome, but I'm more interested in ideas on how to rationalize the discrepancy in the canon materials.

  7. #7
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    21
    Downloads
    7
    Uploads
    0
    I checked the novel "the spiders test" (descibing Richard endier wresting Endier from the spider for any who don´t know).

    In it, the Diemed ruler is described as "baron" aswell.

    But I´d still go with duke

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    BR mailing list
    Posts
    1,562
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Personally, I don`t see the nobles of Diemed (or most other
    realms...) giving up a title willingly. It seems like the "canny
    politician" and "cunning strategist" Harl Diem would take whatever
    titles he could claim, and if some ancestor "gave up" the title, he`d
    have claimed victory by now and taken it back.

    Generally, there were three ways one might lose a noble title. The
    first was that in some systems of nobility, marrying a commoner meant
    the title of the noble could not pass down to the offspring of that
    marriage. Sometimes that only applied to noble women who married
    commoners, and in others to either male or female nobles.

    The second was by being attainted. Committing a capital crime (like
    murder or treason) meant one could lose one`s title of nobility and
    due to the "corruption of the blood" that title would not pass down
    through heirs. It could, however, pass through another line, so
    unless there were no other heirs, the title would remain
    intact. That is, if a duke had two sons and the elder was attainted
    because he committed some act of treason then the title would pass to
    the younger son and his heirs, no matter whether the elder son had
    his own children to whom the title would go normally, even if he were
    "skipped" due to his crime.

    The third is if there are really no heirs and the family line
    actually dies out. In BR, however, one can designate an heir who
    need not actually be of the same blood, so this is less likely than
    in the real world. Roele, of course, managed it.... Unfortunately,
    Harl Diemed is described as "a direct descendant of the founder of
    Diemed" so that last option seems improbable.

    The other issue is that the titles of nobility in BR don`t have the
    same significance as they do in our post-Victorian world. The
    hierarchy of noble classes existed before the 19th century, of
    course, but it became much more systematized and regular during that
    period, and we now have an artificial attitude towards titles that
    people with the middle age mindset upon which BR is modelled would not.

    The title "baron" is probably the most problematic of titles. It is
    the lowest rank of peerage normally, but it also can be used to refer
    to any member of landed feudal nobility. That is, if you are given
    land by the king in exchange for military service (or, rather,
    raising a military force which would be at the service of the king)
    then you`re a baron. Worse, the term is generally applied to those
    of political power, regardless of nobility. William Hardell was the
    Mayor of London, a commoner, and one of the "barons" who participated
    in the ratification of the Magna Carta. Many of the other "barons"
    who signed that document were, in fact, ranked higher than "baron" in
    the sense of a noble title.

    In this sense, Harl Diem might not be titled at all. He might be a
    "baron" in the second sense.

    Gary

  9. #9
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Chelmsford, Essex, England
    Posts
    2,305
    Downloads
    25
    Uploads
    0
    I wonder if the answer could be that he has both titles - his tribe joined the nascent empire making him a duke by birthright, but perhaps he was also granted lands/title directly by Roele (possibly by the succession being decided by the emperor at some point) making him also a baron.

    Either way choosing to stress his appointment by the emperor could be to remind people of his holy claim (roele being first saint of his brother's faith) , a way of pleasing the OIT, or avoiding the issue of whether Diemed is still worthy of ducal status - he isn't renouncing his ducal title he just isn't flaunting it.

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Belgrade, Serbia
    Posts
    113
    Downloads
    46
    Uploads
    0
    There's an interesting unofficial expanded timeline of Anuire here: http://enothril.awardspace.com/AOS/T..._of_Anuire.rtf

    For 1243, it says: Invasions of Diemed by Bhalaene and Aerenwe end, but eastern Diemed is depopulated and ruined. Western Aerenwe is likewise damaged by the warfare. Duke Norvien Diem is forced to accede to the humiliating Treaty of Caercas that obviates his claim on the Iron Throne and demotes him to a baron.

    Later, in 1431: Vandiel Diem inherits the throne of Diemed and immediately abrogates the Treaty of Caercas, claiming that Bhaelane no longer exists and that by removing itself from the Empire, Aerenwe has no right to be a signatory to the treaty. Further, Vandiel declares the treaty contravenes Imperial Law. He declares that the Diems will once more be dukes.

    It says nothing about Heirl Diem, but if this scenario is used, one could says that Vandiel's claims died with him and that Heirl reaffirmed the Treaty of Caercas in the light of Vandiel's losses of Medoere and Eastern Diemed.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. New File Added: The Duchy of Osoerde
    By Magian in forum BRWiki Discussions
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 11-03-2012, 04:43 AM
  2. Blood Skull Barony
    By Wilenburg in forum BRWiki Discussions
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-01-2008, 02:31 AM
  3. Blood Skull Barony
    By kgauck in forum BRWiki Discussions
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: 06-20-2008, 05:25 AM
  4. Tuornen- a Duchy or Not?
    By ericthecleric in forum The Royal Library
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 03-25-2008, 01:51 PM
  5. Duchy of Osoerde write-up
    By Elijah in forum The Royal Library
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 01-16-2007, 11:39 AM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
BIRTHRIGHT, DUNGEONS & DRAGONS, D&D, the BIRTHRIGHT logo, and the D&D logo are trademarks owned by Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and are used by permission. ©2002-2010 Wizards of the Coast, Inc.