Magic Item Creation

[AndrewTall]

Is RP a real cost?

Yes, clearly so - spend too much RP on making items and see your domain crumble as opponents use their RP to tear it down. See your bloodline crumble as minor RP losses accumulate and burn blood...


Are Blood and RP the same cost?

Mechanically yes - so if you are happy for people to burn blood, why not have them burn an equal cost in RP? RP has the mechanic advantage that it is independent of the PC and thus scales with the item alone, not with both item and personal bloodline.

[AndrewTall]

where does Source RP come from?

OK, my tuppence.

Support of the land - unless the land itself is sapient and sentient, this is a shorthand, and either a) 'support of the local populace' b) support of the local spirits of the land or c) influence directly over the mebhaighl of the land.

a) is clearly incorrect - source levels are inverse to population, so source RP cannot be generated or swayed by populace aside from negatively (I differentiate this from the land's choice which uses similar terminology for obvious reasons)

b) does not fit with standard understanding - few places have guardian elementals even in the elven woods and they would be endemic under such a system (see various oriental and african settings)

c) looks the clear winner to me - the mage is drawing power directly from the magic of the land.

If 'c' then thematically source RP represents magical power, so is thematically better to create magic items than xp.

[Rowan]

Andrew, agreed, except that my point about unblooded rulers was that there is a gap in the original system and explanation. Your proposed system and explanation recognizes that RP is very important to the system in order to conduct domain actions. That's good.

I've been playing around with similar systems, largely because I also have been working to apply BR domain rules to other settings. The simplest, I think, is letting all characters use their Cha scores as a base for absorbing RP (bloodline scores would add to this, increasing the overall RP available to blooded characters, but reducing the advantage the large bloodlines have over the smaller ones and preventing maxing out so quickly when your domain grows). A better system IMO, though more complex, involves allowing apparatus of administration effectively add to the amount of RP that can be wielded, but which of course burns up that potential RP as maintenance (as well as GB costs). Level could be a modifier, but I'm not too fond of it. Divine bloodlines would be a great advantage in that they would increase capture and storage of RP. I've considered also that the vassalage bond would work both ways as a free exchange for scions, but not be so flexible for those characters just employing more basic types of influence.

[AndrewTall]

Management Theory

Hmm, for once I am out-accountanted

Agree for priests - unless you restrict them in line with true mages and magicians then they have numbers - aside from xp - see later.

A problem with mages. Looking at the numbered (1-2 hundred wizards) then about half of all wizards are source holders excluding elves. Hmm, always 2 it is, a master and apprentice <break!>

If you use xp as the cost to prohibit proliferation then it doesn't work for sedentary types - they need to get out there and risk life and limb to gain xp to then spend on items. (Sire, we captured a goblin for the mage that he might work his wonders as you commanded, DM: ok, that's a 1/2 CR threat, no xp - have them catch you a fully armed storm giant).

In an xp cost system wizards and priests would rapidly reduce in number (adventuring is hazardous to the health, particularly if you don't gain levels from it but clear out the small fry and have to hunt bigger game).

In short, if relying on the management approach to item creation, I'd rather burn hitpoints / ability / years points. The cost is kept but changed to a more sedentary possibility.

[kgauck]

PBeM does require a radical simplification, because you make one or two decisions a month, rather than deciding hour by hour, and in some situations, moment by moment, what you are doing.

It raises the question, do we need separate theories of what is going on on the ground for PBeM and table-top play? I have certainly seen different schools of thought about several things, taxation, alliances, cooperation, between those whose main experience is table top and those who mostly PBeM.

The question of how much are these processes mystical and divine (two separate qualities) as opposed to political and mundane, are questions I don't want hard and fast answers too. I think its nice to navigate around all four corners from time to time, even though I personally spend most of my time around political and mundane. But because of that, I don't want a description of RP that is mostly mystical and divine, because that's not the main way I think about RP. Political intrigues are so easy to develop, metaphysical conflicts less so.

I don't think normal realm magic (based on source RP) would be quite so obvious, but I do think wizards are in a good position to know something is up - I notice a slight tug in the flow of Mebhaighl in the direction of my neighbor, he must be drawing up a potent spell. And when there are mundane observations that might just leave most people scratching their heads - "What is Rogr up to?" Wizards are almost certainly as good as reading one another as two rival generals would be - "See his cavalry all drawn up on the right, he intends to flank us!" Especially two rivals like Alies and Rogr.

[AndrewTall]

RP vs XP.

Third party support.
If others contribute XP, then you need to make a mechanic. If they contribute RP then an existing mechanic is sufficient - vassalage.

Story wise draining xp is generally an undead sort of thing - i.e. life draining, necromancy, i.e. generic bad stuff opposed by the gods. This could cause interesting story possibilities but on the whole probably not.

Story wise RP vassalage could lead to some wonderful tiffs and ruptures...


Balance
I see the xp cost as simply a method to prohibit proliferation in 3e - they needed something and burning hitpoints or ability points (as in 2e with 1 pt of con for permanency) seemed overly harsh. So they picked xp which were considered easy to come by and which would encourage adventuring rather than ivory tower research...

RP can balance, but, as noted, only if they are a real cost.

sorry about multiple posts, was trying to kibble to keep argument threads clear.

[irdeggman]

Is RP a real cost?

Yes, clearly so - spend too much RP on making items and see your domain crumble as opponents use their RP to tear it down. See your bloodline crumble as minor RP losses accumulate and burn blood...

It is semi- "real" it is not a personal investment or expenditure. You have never really addressed that one at all.

RP is not something that is physically present like a GB (or in reality the goods associated with being a GB). It is very specifically not something concrete that can be "stolen" or physically owned. It is associated with a regent because of his tie to the holdings not becasue of anything else. The only way to transfer RP from one regent to another is via investiture (which is the process technically used for an oath of vassalage too) or via killing a regent which frees it up.

Are Blood and RP the same cost?

Mechanically yes - so if you are happy for people to burn blood, why not have them burn an equal cost in RP? RP has the mechanic advantage that it is independent of the PC and thus scales with the item alone, not with both item and personal bloodline.

No way are they the same even mechanically. I have no idea where you are making that comparison.

And since as you put it RP scales independently of the OC then it is not associated with any personal investment of the PC (or to be more specific his life-force (e.g., xp)). You have just now made the statement that it is independent and thus not tied to any life-force so how can you continue to proceed down the path that this is an equivalant method to the RAW method for creating magic items?

At least giving up the equivalant of an ability score has some direct to to the PC's investment (or life force) and there is also a similar comaprison to a WotC mechanic - see Weapons of Legacy - in order to gain the abilities of the weapon the PC must take an ability score drop (in most cases).

[kgauck]

c) looks the clear winner to me - the mage is drawing power directly from the magic of the land.

If 'c' then thematically source RP represents magical power, so is thematically better to create magic items than xp.

This is a really good point. As I've mentioned I think you should gain, not lose xp in permanent item creation. I suspect the xp business is a balancing mechanic to limit proliferation. And standard D&D is a high fantasy, magic rich environment.

Rather, I would prefer to see magic items as influenced by and influencing the flow of Mebhaighl. As such, you can't gear up with multiple rings, boots, a cape, a vest, gloves, bracers, a pendant, head gear, eyewear, and you can see where this is going. The items would magically clash with one another and cancel each other out, leaving a bunch of non-functioning gear.

Instead, I prefer to see three permanent magic items possible, and coming from different categories. Attack, defense, action. Items are multi-use rather than single use, so I can load related, compatible powers on a single item.

The result is generally a few, beloved magic items of malleable purpose, giving the character a clear magical specialty. Its thematic with the setting, low magic in terms of how common magic is (few items) but those items can be quite powerful. How much your item can do is limited by your character level. Every wizard staff is designed to serve the wizard his whole career, and so can store the maximum, but a player can only effectively use some part of that.

Its kind of like every permanent item was designed with the Weapons of Legacy rules, but not precisely.

A standard D&D character had so many slots for magic items, which ranged from meger to really powerful. A character could become a walking magic treasure of various purposes. Using three multi-use items the number of slots are effectively reduced (and more level dependent) and focused. I think its much better than xp limits.

[kgauck]

I see the xp cost as simply a method to prohibit proliferation in 3e - they needed something and burning hitpoints or ability points (as in 2e with 1 pt of con for permanency) seemed overly harsh. So they picked xp which were considered easy to come by and which would encourage adventuring rather than ivory tower research...

I have been enamored with temporary ability score damage in 3x. So magic items that drain temporary ability damage in creation might easily add a week of recovery time to a big project. "By Vorynn's Cloak! After crafting that wand, every time I stand up all I see are spinning runes. I'm just gonna lay down for a few days."

Mostly I've used stuff like this in crisis situations of physical injury or poisoning.

"Oh, Haelyn's swift justice! The poison has hit poor Darien hard. But its work is not yet finished, it may kill him!"

"I have an antidote, but its not without side effects."

"Such as?"

"He'll be loopy for about two days, and somewhat daft for a few days after that. Someone will need to watch him."

A potion that basically moved Con damage or wound points over to Wis damage.

[irdeggman]

An additional WotC based comparison for ability scores working for magic item creation (that is a tie to xp) (other than the weapons of legacy one) is that the only way to permanently increase ability scores (other than gaining levels - which is inherently tied to gaining xp) is via a wish spell. The minimum cost of a wish spell is 5000 xp and you can gain an inherent bonus to an ability score of +1 per wish.

So if the blood score was simply a straight comparison to the normal ability scores than a 5000 to 1 xp to ability score loss would seem to be appropriate - but it is not. It is at least double (at initial character creation) so it would be more along the lines of 2500 xp per point of blood score. That seems a bit better than the 1000 per in Chapter 8 of the BRCS. Although the default is also to double the cost of magic items for the setting so perhaps 5000 xp per point is not unreasonable.