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  1. #1
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Investing Titles

    Some topics crop up again and again and beg for explanation. One is why certain titles don't seem to match the history of the place (Why is Diemed a Barony?) or their power (Why is Ghoere a Barony?). It is possible to offer historical sounding explanations for why this is so, but I have happened across another possible explanation.

    Perhaps titles are invested as well as lands. So that at various times regents were unable (or unwilling to spend the regency) to invest the titles of their ancestors.

    So what makes a title hard to invest? Basically the same things that cause a major loss of regency. Along with hits to bloodline, perhaps if this situation still holds at the time of investiture of a new regent, the title "sticks" and won't come along.

    This implies the notion that there is something objective about a title. Here I propose that in order to protect succession, items have been made only usable by the lawful "Duke of Diemed". Such items might include thrones, scepters, crowns, as well as other things. The Thorn Throne is only the most obvious example. Some of these things, like sitting on the Thorn Throne are for appearances during investiture.

    Consider how many coronations go. You are handed an item for you right hand (sword, scepter, scroll, scales, &c) an item for your left hand (orb, scepter, &c) and a crown. Perhaps other articles of state are placed on your person, a robe, a belt, and so on. Each might have different requirements. Some item (say the Sword of Diemed) can be used only by the scions of Diem, and can be passed to family members to command armies, go on quests, or what have you. Another item, say the signet Ring of Diemed can only be worn by the Baron of Diemed (or the Duke) so that either the Duke or his designated heir can wear the ring and impart the seal of Diemed. And the Crown of Diemed can only be worn by the Duke of Diemed. So along comes some heir (Hierl?) and he holds the sword, wears the ring, but cannot bear the crown. The crowd gasps! This part of investiture has failed. Hierl is Baron to be sure (he was invested by his father during the ceremony of designation) and he can bear the ring, but without the crown, he is not the duke.

    So we have the case of Ghoere. According to the history written several years ago there was a Baron of Ghoere who was a vassal of the Duke of Bhalaene, and at some point he conquers the two duchies of Bhalaene and Ghieste, but won't assume the title of Duke because the peers won't accept it. This kind of argument makes sense in some cases (why did Alamie/Tournen drop from Archduchy to a pair of Duchies), but certainly seems to weak to explain why the regent of two former duchies can't be a Duke, let alone an Archduke.

    Perhaps the Baron of Ghoere who conquered Ghieste and Bhalaene, he was unable to make use of the regalia of either duchy (perhaps because their were other claimants) and so continues to use their ancient baronial title.

    How does one (say the Baron of Diemed) get use of their full titles? Quests! In a sense its the same as the way you become Emperor (another vacant title) but smaller. You must hold the area the title covers, and perform certain quests (tied to the history of the title) in any order, and then you can invest the title.

    One quest we know right off the top relates to Endier, Richard Endier confronted the Spider and was able to claim his title. A logical quest for such a regent. Do to claim his duchy, the Baron of Diemed must reconquer some part (most or all) of the old duchy, perform a quest or two related to the founding myths of the Duchy, maybe some minor quests (a pilgrimage), and then the investment works.

    Gavin Tael might have such a list of quests and things to do to bear any of the regalia that either he is only part way through his list, or just isn't bothering.

    Thoughts?

  2. #2
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    I wonder if it is partly related to the invisible flow of reverence that is regency and bloodline.

    I.e. not only must one fulfill various legal and social issues to claim a title, one also needs to 'be' the title to a sufficient number of the 'right' people.

    So the Barons of Ghoere are still remembered as the usurpers who struck down/etc the dukes as far as the peasants are concerned - and no amount of beatings down the generations have made them think otherwise.

    In this scenario the need for a quest or glorious act makes great sense - what happens when Ghoere doesn't just defend his lands, but throws back the Spider or Gorgon thus saving the south? The great act 'proves' to the people that he has truly taken on the mantle of the lost dukes...

    In mechanic terms you have the three fold task -

    1) assume the throne - not usually an issue...
    2) convince your peers - get the support of 'X' domain points of allies
    3) convince your people - perform 'X' great acts to the benefit of the people

    The greater the title, the greater the difficulties involved. And as the great act probably needs to benefit the people not the ruler (otherwise it is just them looking after themselves) it is a high risk/low reward effort other than for the prestige of the title.

    I can also under this system see Avan, Boeruine, etc militarily dominating all Anuire, but still not being emperor because 'they need force to keep their throne - the real emperors held it with love alone'. In this case even running the empire for blameless decades would not make the title generally accepted, as the claimant would not have won the hearts of the people through some great act.

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    Senior Member cccpxepoj's Avatar
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    Well i have some thoughts and some questions about this topic.
    Thoughts: Maybe beside items and investiture some titles requires some provinces in a control of a aspirant.
    For example, if a Baron of Diemed wants to become a Duke of Diemed, or an Archduke, he needs to recover some of the "rebelled" realms lost by his ancestors ( Endier, Medoere, Ilien and some parts Roesone).
    Acquiring the greater title can give you some benefits beside prestige.
    For example the Baron of Diemed proclaims himself a Duke, by conquest of Medoere, this act rises the prestige and authority of his realm but also gives him rightful claim on the ex-diemedan provinces of Roesone and on a counties of Endier and Ilien, by acquiring those provinces by conquest or vassalage he gains right to proclaim himself as Archduke of Diemed, the protector of the south , and that gives him the shot at the title of Emperor.

    Questions: Most of the titles on Cerilia are vaguely described, and a connection between them is unclear, except for the Anuire and Rjurickland.
    The titles in Brechtur leaves me totally confused. Graaf should mean a King, but most of the rulers are defined as counts, some even as baronets ???
    I am not familiar with Khinasi titles, but as i remember only the highest noble titles were presented, there is no titles for provincial nobility.
    Any thoughts?

  4. #4
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    I wonder if it is partly related to the invisible flow of reverence that is regency and bloodline.

    I.e. not only must one fulfill various legal and social issues to claim a title, one also needs to 'be' the title to a sufficient number of the 'right' people.
    I was thinking about this, but didn't quite have my finger on it. Certainly for domains with a clear focus, like temple domains, its obvious. Its certainly possible that domain alignment (or whatever concept you prefer) style of rulership connects with a particular title. As such a given plot of territory or a domain could have potentially more than one territory.

    If Medoere were ever ruled by a Haelynite, IHH devoted fighter, he might start out as Count of Medoere, and be unable to become whatever Suris was, since he's not a Ruornil priest or wizard, or even an undead slaying, shadow world fighting, warrior. So he needs to perform quests and so on to become Baron of Medoere.

    In this scenario the need for a quest or glorious act makes great sense - what happens when Ghoere doesn't just defend his lands, but throws back the Spider or Gorgon thus saving the south? The great act 'proves' to the people that he has truly taken on the mantle of the lost dukes...
    Exactly the direction I was thinking.

    In mechanic terms you have the three fold task -

    1) assume the throne - not usually an issue...
    2) convince your peers - get the support of 'X' domain points of allies
    3) convince your people - perform 'X' great acts to the benefit of the people
    The point I made about "in any order" is that a hero might start with #3, then get #2, then finally #1, rather than the other way round.

    The greater the title, the greater the difficulties involved. And as the great act probably needs to benefit the people not the ruler (otherwise it is just them looking after themselves) it is a high risk/low reward effort other than for the prestige of the title.
    Again I would point to what is required for a major gain of regency. But I am also partial to a way to integrate quests. As an Arthurian, I like the idea of having quests, but aside from looking for lost goodies, I didn't know how to put them in the setting. A great monster has traditionally menaced this realm, be he awnshegh, or dragon, or what have you, remove this threat permenantly, and new things are possible.

  5. #5
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cccpxepoj View Post
    For example, if a Baron of Diemed wants to become a Duke of Diemed, or an Archduke, he needs to recover some of the "rebelled" realms lost by his ancestors ( Endier, Medoere, Ilien and some parts Roesone).
    I mentioned this at the end:
    Quote Originally Posted by kgauck View Post
    To claim his duchy, the Baron of Diemed must reconquer some part (most or all) of the old duchy, perform a quest or two related to the founding myths of the Duchy, maybe some minor quests (a pilgrimage), and then the investment works.
    Acquiring the greater title can give you some benefits beside prestige. [reclaim the Duchy, add more, become] Archduke of Diemed, the protector of the south , and that gives him the shot at the title of Emperor.
    Exactly, no need to bite the whole Imperial piece off at once. Defeating the Spider would be critical to becoming Archduke of Diemed, here is where I would put Endier as required, plus another four or so provinces, and a few quests. From Archduke of Diemed, its clear you are on your way to Emperor, rather that jumping from Baron to Emperor.

    The titles in Brechtur leaves me totally confused. Graaf should mean a King, but most of the rulers are defined as counts, some even as baronets ???
    Graf means Count, Herzog means Duke, Erzherzog is Archduke, and Konig is King.

    I am not familiar with Khinasi titles, but as i remember only the highest noble titles were presented, there is no titles for provincial nobility. Any thoughts?
    Here is what I've been using:
    King.......Sultan
    Prince....Emir
    Duke......Mushir
    Baron.....Malik
    Count.....Qadi
    Viscount.Naquib
    Lord......Sayyid
    Knight....Faris

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by kgauck View Post
    I mentioned this at the end:




    Exactly, no need to bite the whole Imperial piece off at once. Defeating the Spider would be critical to becoming Archduke of Diemed, here is where I would put Endier as required, plus another four or so provinces, and a few quests. From Archduke of Diemed, its clear you are on your way to Emperor, rather that jumping from Baron to Emperor.



    Graf means Count, Herzog means Duke, Erzherzog is Archduke, and Konig is King.



    Here is what I've been using:
    King.......Sultan
    Prince....Emir
    Duke......Mushir
    Baron.....Malik
    Count.....Qadi
    Viscount.Naquib
    Lord......Sayyid
    Knight....Faris

    I could be wrong but I think Emir is a higher level than Sultan. According to typically history they seem fairly equal when I look it up. Sultan does mean monarch but Emir is a decent of Mohammad and also crown prince. Both seem pretty important.

    In Khanasi you also have Grand Sultan. Emir's tend to rule much larger countries. Khourane is a Emirate but Mairada is a Sultana.

    It could be that the titles in Khanasi are just as messed up as Anuire.

    -BB

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    Administrator Green Knight's Avatar
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    Interesting concept...but I still think that the great variety of titles presented in the RoE book is "erroneous". If you look at the various realms, there are sooo many different titles for the sovereign. Duke, archduke, prince, baron, thane, queen etc. etc. Looks to me like they wanted different titles for each regent to help differentiate. So I don't feel like using time and energy to try and explain how these titles make sense...I just change them!

    There's a Duke in Diemed for example (perhaps the one title that makes the LEAST sense).
    Cheers
    Bjørn
    DM of Ruins of Empire II PbeM

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    Quote Originally Posted by bbeau22 View Post
    I could be wrong but I think Emir is a higher level than Sultan. According to typically history they seem fairly equal when I look it up. Sultan does mean monarch but Emir is a decent of Mohammad and also crown prince. Both seem pretty important.

    In Khanasi you also have Grand Sultan. Emir's tend to rule much larger countries. Khourane is a Emirate but Mairada is a Sultana.

    It could be that the titles in Khanasi are just as messed up as Anuire.

    -BB
    The problem is that Khinashi is some sort of arab-persian-turkish amalgamation and it is therefore unclear what the exact ranking should be.

    An Emir is a prince and a Malik is a king

    I do not know what a mushir is but I think it might be an Arabic derivation of the persian word Shir which means lion.

    A Qadi is a Judge

    The Highest title would probably be Caliph, which meant defender of the faithfull. The Caliph was the political leader of al Muslim subjects... Of course there could exist more than one claim to the title at the same time. All mayor Islamic emipres, Ummayad Abbassid and fatimid have sought this title.
    Last edited by Sir Tiamat; 08-28-2008 at 12:10 PM.

  9. #9
    Senior Member cccpxepoj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kgauck View Post
    Graf means Count, Herzog means Duke, Erzherzog is Archduke, and Konig is King.
    Then why is Erick Danig just a Count, and what is the Baronet of Wierech then ?
    And i am positive that i read somewhere( Havens of the great Bay ??) that in high brecht Graaf means King.
    Point is in Brechtur we have real confusion with titles because of anurian occupation, so we have strange mix of Dukes, Counts, Kings, Barons, Baronets,Sthatholders and so forth.

  10. #10
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    All the titles are intended to be confusing because it adds verisimilitude to the idea that there is a history to this place. Why is there a Duke of Guise and a Count of Provence? There are historical reasons this is so, but if you look at a map, Guise is a tiny little place and Provence is huge, full of people and cities, and very wealthy. Champagne is a county and Bar is a duchy. Champagne is huge, rich, and full of people and cities, Bar is tiny.

    The sense is that the fortunes of realms have changed historically and some are rising and others are falling (or have fallen far). Some realms don't even exist anymore, though in some cases we know their names, like Medec and Ghieste.

    This makes it harder to learn, but it does offer the sense that the world was not assembled yesterday. So I presume when I find a place with a grand title, that they had a grand history, even if they are tiny and obscure today. Mairada also got prestige and dignity because of its connection to the Temple of Rilni.

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