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  1. #1

    Tuarhievel

    Discussion thread for Tuarhievel. If you would like to add a comment, click the Post Reply button.

    Rather than continuing to discuss the Tuarhievel pages under the discussion for Rhuimach Taeline, I moved them here so that future viewers will find them by means other than accidentally.
    Last edited by kgauck; 07-04-2008 at 01:44 PM.

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    Kenneth, is there any PS or accessory that you "recognize" as a full fledged member of BR family or is only RoE actually a canon, in biblical sense, while others are shunned as not worthy?

    Guys, you are changing what is written by TSR and you are not even mentioning that this is your own personal view of things and give it as an alternative reference, but instead you just jot it down like it's there in the original. I'm being told that I can't find few people and write something new without approval and involvement of the whole BR community while others have right to do it on their own, even changing the original material?
    I don't agree to this material and I want the original. If you don't like it, offer an alternative and mark it as a fan fiction (isn't there a legal problem about this, too?). Making stuff up that doesn't exist, I can live with that one, but this is another thing. If people don't like the original, they will use the alternative or none. If there is something terribly wrong, open a discussion before you change something.
    Rey M. - court wizard of Tuarhievel

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    Site Moderator Sorontar's Avatar
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    Canon vs fan-based was always known to be an issue. So early on we (meaning the BR wiki moderators who had to work out what the policies we are "enforcing" are) decided that:

    1) Most of what will go in the wiki is fan-based so there is little need to mark it as such.
    2) The content of the BRCS 3.5e will need to be protected (which it slowly is) and it is the pdf version, not the wiki version, which is the "official" version.
    3) If you don't want people to edit your work, put it in a User:Sorontar/My_Gorgon type page.
    4) If your page is from a race or character's point-of-view, then make it an Observation page.
    5) Discussions about pages and their content are to be done on this forum.
    6) Nothing is "official" on the wiki. It is just a way of speeding up getting people's ideas to others, since the Atlas etc stalled.
    7) The wiki is there to be modified by anyone, because it is a wiki.

    And as point 6) says, nothing needs to be sanctioned because nothing is official. If you have problems with someone's page on [[Brecht hairstyles]], then comment on the forum discussion page, edit the page to fix what you see is wrong, or add a variant to the page.

    The problem with the WotC publications has always been that they aren't consistent in how they handle similar stuff, and they don't always make sense/agree with each other.
    People seem to have been forced to decide for themselves what is the best elements of each PS etc. On this wiki, fans are trying to smooth these things out and add new details and interpretations.

    Sorontar.

  4. #4
    with the atlas pretty much stalled out and without help it would take forever to get it out. Hence is why all the files I have been adding since there is really no one to help with the atlas so I am putting it up with what has been done for the community as a hole could try to help with it buy seeing what is done and how much there is to do.

    I hope this explains all the files since individually it was simplier to put each into a new thread.

    I know it is off topic but it is all I can do to get it going.
    Yesterday is history
    Tommorrow is a mystery
    But Today is a gift, that is why it is called present

    Kung Fu Panda
    Master Oogway

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    When there is problem with consistency, it should be discussed. You see it, it doesn't fit in, let's work it out. Otherwise, who gets first to the wiki will write his own. Then someone will see it and say, no, it doesn't work for me that way, it's this way. Only out of respect of the people who work on the wiki, I didn't re-write some things as I see fit.

    Take population for instance. In god's forsaken land, where no living human being wants to live and it's harsh for anyone to survive, there is a kingdom that counts three times more population than in nice warm climate kingdom with plentiful resources.

    Sooner or later, there will be inconsistencies within wiki, because not one person will work on it all. Then someone might not recognize what someone else is trying to pull and put his idea. Then first one will erase that and put his own, and so we go round.

    This is fan based, and you interpret it your own way. Someone comes for reference, compares two domains and sees info doesn't match up. In the end, it's one man's word, not community's. Some things are being discussed after they've been applied, and some aren't ever.
    I respect the work people are doing here. I wish I had more time to do it myself.

    Isn't it fair to let people decide if they have problem with original material, than doing it for them on your own? It's only good will or maybe ignorance or laziness other people don't argue with that. Not everyone is willing to spend his time reading 4000+ articles on wiki and search for potential problems of one man's idea.
    Rey M. - court wizard of Tuarhievel

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    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    The version of Rhuimach Taeline that I posted is more or less the one that I first presented to the Birthright Community in June of 2003.

    Quote Originally Posted by kgauck View Post
    A new post on a topic from September of 2002.

    Fhiele Dhoesone is a half elf, and sister of the king of Tuarhievel. When this discussion passed last september, I`ve abandon the idea of a half-elf as a hybrid. I had to do something with Fhiele, though. She`s becoming important in the PC`s machinations in the Taelshore. You can see her story and my solution for her at

    http://home.mchsi.com/~kgauck/taelshore/Fhiele.html

    Ryan Caveney should be well pleased.

    Kenneth Gauck

    kgauck@mchsi.com
    As the post by Lee only yesterday in the Half-Elves, Cerilian thread demonstrates, the approach I have been using is a standard variant in the Birthright community. I was unaware that anyone at all (in 12 years of discussion on the subject) used the PSoT as is. So if anything was to be labeled, I think its stuff related to Savane becoming regent of Tuarhievel, like "A letter from Savane Mhoried" posted yesterday.

    I'm perfectly happy to see other versions of Rhuimach Taeline posted, or to see another version of his background if someone else has another take on this character.

    The best characterizations of NPC's will come from their being used in a real campaign, as Rhuimach was used in my Taelshore campaign. Good characterizations should take a priority over published but unsatisfactory core materials. The dissatisfaction with the PS's in general and this one, Tuarhievel, in particular has been pretty widespread.

    I have a preference for revised characterizations that remain true to the character concept in general. My work in Talinie has followed this principle. But when we get to Tuarhievel, we also have the question of elf-human relations, the nature of half-elves, and so on. Going back to September of 2002, this community has created a half-elf variant in which they are not the offspring of a human and an elf, but transformed humans in service of Sidhe purposes.

    I regard this as an "official" variant since so many people have said they use all or major parts of the approach. I fully understand that even people who appreciate this variant choose not to use it.

    Creation of a special banner and the use of a slightly different vocabulary (such as Hanner Sidhe) seem quite appropriate because people looking for the half-elf as changeling interpretation I have championed are going to look for half-elves of this kind, and a banner makes them easier to find.

    However, cleaning up the mess that is the PSoT is another matter. Since the BRCS was first envisioned I have argued that there is no point in us simply reproducing junk, if a piece of text that sits before us in a published source is junk. I don't think much of the PSoT is usable as it. I think a lot of it can be fixed with careful editing, and some of it needs serious revision.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rey View Post
    Kenneth, is there any PS or accessory that you "recognize" as a full fledged member of BR family or is only RoE actually a canon, in biblical sense, while others are shunned as not worthy?
    No. No PS is anything more than apocrypha, a text of uncertain authority. It provides names, situations in broad strokes, but its details are too frequently a mess. They violate the rules set down in the rule book, contradict other more authoritative sources, are internally inconsistent, or are just obvious first draft efforts in need of revision.

    If, for instance, the Savane Mhoried page I wrote was just a creative effort, it could easily have gone to a character with a different name or a Mhoried sister of my own invention, but it was created to resolve problems so many people have had with the Savane character and her role in Tuarhievel. Rhuimach Taeline was re-written for the same purpose, but with more of an eye to Dhoesone since that's where RoE places him. Having him leave Dhoesone and become an advisor to Savane just doesn't seem to be the way to go with that character.

    I am not happy to see the worst parts of the PS's do damage to Birthright's appeal among people finding the wiki for the first time. One hopes that in the dozen years since it came out, people have tweaked and improved the material therein to give us something a bit better to present to the world on the official BR site.

    The 3rd edition setting materials were so much better in consistency, thoughtfulness, and depth than 2nd edition setting materials. I now, in hindsight, think that 3rd edition may represent a high point for settings as coherent, sensible things. What we present ought to match 3rd edition quality standards, not only because we have a duty to our own setting, but also because we are in competition with other settings for readers and players.

    Let's produce the best quality materials we can, and avoid a devotion to inferior materials just because they were published by TSR on their way to bankruptcy.

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    Great. Can we discuss the utter wrongness of some parts of PSs before someone spends his or her time typing them on the wiki?
    And, for that part, any other issue not fulfilling the expectations.
    Rey M. - court wizard of Tuarhievel

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    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Sure. But since the total volume of PS's is quite large, perhaps you would like to suggest some places to start.

    I have a few of my own.

    If Fhileraene was removed as Prince (presumably so that a PC could become Prince or Queen) what caused him to not be Prince any more? Going off alone to be abducted by the Gorgon is generally regarded as unsatisfying.

    Other than for this purpose, Fhileraene should be assumed to be Prince, since the more common use of a PS is to play an elf in Tuarhievel or to adventure in Tuarhievel or interacting with Tuarhievel politically.

    If Savane is not a changeling being groomed for rule in Mhoried, what is she doing there? If she's just a concubine, what is her likely fate? Regent in her own stead is not the most likely outcome. Dead or fleeing back to Mhoried is more likely by orders of magnitude. If Rhuandice Tuarlachiem and the ghaellie Sidhe were to sit by and let Savane attempt to rule, it is clear that the ghaellie Sidhe is an impotent force and we should portray them as such, because even in the heart of an elf kingdom, they are pathetic. So is she dead, fleeing, or a changeling?

    The first page of the PSot, the letter from Savane therefore needs to be replaced by a letter from some more reasonable person. Who would that be? Fhileraene might explain his absence if that fits how he left the throne. Llytha Damaan the prince's lifelong friend, childhood companion, and lieutenant is a good possibility. Ruandice is likely to have something to say no matter whether others have a message or not. I can't imagine her letter or communication would not be vastly different depending on the views of the new regent of Tuarhievel.

    Well, that covers page 2 of the PSoT.

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    30 to go.

    Since PS volume is large, the first ones could be the ones associated with current larger changes on wiki, like Rjurik is very much in heat these days (is it because it's so hot outside so we're looking for some cooling) so PS of Stjordvik, Tuarhievel (with Dhoesone as first neighbor to Stjordvik and in close relations with Tuar.), and Halskapa are the winners. And perhaps to tie them with R.Highlands to generate a solid base for other domains and eventual new PSs.
    Along the way there could be all the rules that are compromised, like population issue, domain ratings, and holdings, which are currently discussed in separated threads.

    Considering Tuarhievel, Prince could be abducted, many humans and [half-elves] live near Thorn Throne so some could be spies. Also, with Savane in the game, some of the elven nobles might have planned it. Gorgon perhaps demanded tribute or Prince's head in exchange for not attacking Tuarhievel, and he's only bluffing because he is sure he'll lose many units and also because elves know that victory could be costly and other human and non-human realms would soon crush them to pieces.

    What about Savane? She could be secretly escorted by Tara in fear of a lynch. But, is she invested with prince's blood? If not, prince's absence could mean the political turmoil in domain and increase inner disagreements. And perhaps this could be the hook for PC to stand in.
    Murdering her, for elves would mean worsening the relations with Mhoried.
    Maybe to put her in charge of Llyrandor estates to appease those who don't approve of gheallie Sidhe and conveniently on first line of defense?

    The letter could be written by Rhuandice, seeking to 'return the crown' to the family of the first Queen.
    Rey M. - court wizard of Tuarhievel

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    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    It is worth remembering that the Gheallie Sidhe have killed pure-blood elven monarch s who were too close to humans - Savanne as depicted in PSoT is an unplayable abnormality - the Gheallie Sidhe would slaughter her - and Tara is the awnshegh tried to intervene - without the slightest qualm, in the event that Mohried went to war, it would be carved between Ghoere, Mur Kilad and the elves and the Gheallie Sidhe would come out stronger than before as the undecided elves responded to the human aggression. If you try and run Savane as regent then you have the problem Kenneth mentioned - no Gheallie Sidhe, in addition to requiring major changes to sidhe:elf relations which are generally not subservient on the elven side in BR.

    A Hanner Sidhe banner would be helpful for those without long history with br.net, the local approach to half elves threw me initially although I can now see the reasoning behind it.

    In terms of agreements before the wiki - we've had 10 years arguing over population, et al, so we are not going to get agreement. The wiki lets us put up the ideas in easily search-able format, readily label the various approaches, etc.

    As for PS's they are a labour of love meaning that they will be done as someone who likes a realm comes to it rather than in a coherent order, I've pretty much finished PS Danigau, done significant chunks of dhoesone, and it's taken me around 2 years to write them. Cardinal Malik has written 2, I know of a handful of others - all that have been done in a decade. Even most realm 'top pages' in the wiki are still unpopulated.

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