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  1. #1
    Senior Member Dcolby's Avatar
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    Lets Interpret the Mad Maeve prophesy!!

    It has already been hit upon in a couple of seperate posts in other threads, but it has no thread of its own so...to anyone familier with Tuornen and the prophesy of Mad Maeve, since it is never defined and left to the D.M. to interpret what are your interpretations?

    One Thin Supper In The Worms Pot
    One Still Dreamer On a Cold Bed
    Two Wan Candles In a Pyre Hot
    Two Dire Brothers On a Field Dead

    My own interpretation (and thus by no means an authority) is that this is a warning to Tuornen to stay neutral in the affairs of Beoruine and Avinal.

    To me the Thin Supper in the Worms pot is the remains of the former Empire.

    The Still Dreamer is the chamberlain who waits for the "perfect" canidate with the throne or the former capital itself being the stone bed.

    The two wan Candles are the nations of Avinal and Beoruine (Mighty nations by the current standard, but Wan Candles in comparison to the Flame that was the old empire) and the Pyre Hot is their war for empire. (The definition of Pyre in the dictionary is a large fire specificly for the purpose of cremation)

    Two Dire brothers does not refer to actual brothers of the blood but again from the dictionary "men of like mind or profession" and Hence the Prince and Archduke themselves.

    On the field dead may or may not refer to the actual deaths of the Beoruine and Avin, or it could refer to the death of their nations.

    So to me the message is stay neutral, if Tuornen commits to one side or the other and shifts the balence of power West and Central Anuire will be engulfed in war, quite possibly all of Anuire.

    Any hooo thats one of mine, any body else??
    Good Morning Peasant!!

  2. #2
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    The Worm's Pot is the divided Archduchy of Alamie, the thin supper is the produce of a demi-realm.
    The Cold Bed is the grave, and in this case refers to the grave of Lanelle Flaertes; and the Still Dreamer is a mourner who has lost a loved one, and specifically refers to Berric, Dalton, and ultimatly all of Alamie and Tuornen.
    Two Wan Candles are Tuornen and Alamie, and the Pyre Hot are the war torn Heartlands.
    The Two Dire Bothers are Berric and Dalton in the Brother's War

    The true and great realm of Alamie is divided and this is a source of weakness and sadness worthy of morning as one might morn the death of a beloved. The state remains in a perpetual state of conflict and weakness because of its division. As two states, they are wan, only when reunited can the supper be full and restorative, only as a united realm are the people and the state seccure.

    Despite the advice the Tournen PS to avoid the conflict between Boeruine and Avanil, this is very ill advice indeed. I would not present it to the players except as bad advice from a minister who lacks wisdom and would be better retired than retained.

    As Machiavelli writes:
    "A prince is also respected when he is either a true friend or a downright enemy, that to say, when, without any reservation, he declares himself in favour of one party against the other; which course will always be more advantageous than standing neutral; because if two of your powerful neighbours come to blows, they are of such a character that, if one of them conquers, you have either to fear him or not. In either case it will always be more advantageous for you to declare yourself and to make war strenuously; because, in the first case, if you do not declare yourself, you will invariably fall a prey to the conqueror, to the pleasure and satisfaction of him who has been conquered, and you will have no reasons to offer, nor anything to protect or to shelter you. Because he who conquers does not want doubtful friends who will not aid him in the time of trial; and he who loses will not harbour you because you did not willingly, sword in hand, court his fate."

  3. #3
    Senior Member Dcolby's Avatar
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    Well look what I started...well done Kgauck!

    I don't think that the PS guide to Tuornen is correct either in following the middle ground. However...I always wondered is that what Maeve thinks? (or for that matter what or who the hell is Maeve..I have that already worked out for this Campaign but I am not at liberty as some of my players read this board)

    The fear that Tuornen will be the battleground for the Prince and the Archduke (put forth in the PS)is a valid one.

    However being that if the two want to get at each other and feel like mixing it up in Tuornen they will do so regardless of which way Tuornen leans.

    Better to choose....Well better to keep them from fighting and Unite your own worms pot......but since they seem intent to get at each other just out of curiousity which way to lean?

    I beleive that Alamie is nominaly declared for Avin... although very nominaly. So if the enemy of your enemy is your friend Beoruine...

    Then theres that darn WIT being Avinals state church and being able to agitate some of your provinces so what to do what to do...

    Not an easy choice...unfortunately the players in my group do not have long to make up their mind and influence the Duchess. My prerolled events have already started a war between the two powers. (A daring winter attack initiated by Beoruine into Taeghas. I think Beoruine will end up loosing despite his skill as a General and his initial success as Avin has a great deal of resources and allies, although allies can abandon or change sides)
    Last edited by Dcolby; 04-14-2007 at 04:23 AM.
    Good Morning Peasant!!

  4. #4
    Senior Member Beruin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kgauck View Post
    The Worm's Pot is the divided Archduchy of Alamie, the thin supper is the produce of a demi-realm.
    The Cold Bed is the grave, and in this case refers to the grave of Lanelle Flaertes; and the Still Dreamer is a mourner who has lost a loved one, and specifically refers to Berric, Dalton, and ultimatly all of Alamie and Tuornen.
    Two Wan Candles are Tuornen and Alamie, and the Pyre Hot are the war torn Heartlands.
    The Two Dire Bothers are Berric and Dalton in the Brother's War

    The true and great realm of Alamie is divided and this is a source of weakness and sadness worthy of morning as one might morn the death of a beloved. The state remains in a perpetual state of conflict and weakness because of its division. As two states, they are wan, only when reunited can the supper be full and restorative, only as a united realm are the people and the state secure.
    Some interesting thoughts here and certainly a viable interpretation, but on the whole this is IMHO more a description of events past and present, maybe coupled with the advice "You shall seek to unite Tuornen and Alamie again" than a prophecy stating more than the obvious.

    Here's what I did so far IMC:

    First off, as I already said in another thread, I translated the prophecy into German for my players and to preserve the rhyme I had to change the meaning somewhat. For the record, and those few (???) German-speaking BR-fans here, here's my translation:

    Ein dünnes Mahl schmort in des Wurmes Topf,
    Ein stiller Träumer ruht auf dem kalten Stein.
    Zwei fahle Kerzen glüh'n bei des Feuers Kopf,
    Zwei dunkle Brüder säh'n auf dem Feld Gebein.

    My players have consulted quite a few people trying to figure out the meaning and received a number of hints. The most important revelation was probably the underlying structure I decided for the prophecy:

    The first line describes a threat in the (more or less) immediate future,
    the second a possible source of help and assistance,
    the third a place or person that can help or hinder, and
    the last line an event or threat that's still some time away in the future.

    Well, to me the thin supper in the worm's pot is the mebhaighl the drake siphons from the land and uses in his Midnight Cauldron in the Warlock of the Stonecrowns adventure. Using "worm" as a synonym for dragon or drake is common in German and I guess this is also possible in English, so this one is quite obvious to me.

    "One Still Dreamer On a Cold Bed" refers to the grave of Michael Roele. I can't recall if there's an 'official' source describing what happened to Michael's body after his death, but IMC he was spirited away and buried in secret by his elven allies and the Chamberlain. The source of help might be his sword or banner that were buried with him, though I haven't decided the particulars yet.

    I changed "Pyre Hot" to "Fire's Head" in my translation. This will be the name of a distant volcano, giving me an excuse for a good, old-fashioned dungeon-crawl, the wan candles might be undead or elemental guardians. How this will tie in with the rest is not entirely clear to me, but I'm thinking of something similar to finding the secret of creating dragonlances as in that setting.

    "Two Dire Brothers On a Field Dead" has two possible semantic meanings I believe, though you are the native speakers here so correct me if I'm wrong:
    1. Two Dire Brothers are dead on a field. That's the obvious one.
    2. Two Dire Brothers are on a dead field.

    My translation is nearer to the second interpretation, so I'll focus on this meaning: IMC, this line will describe the epic ending of the campaign (if we ever play that long, that is). I see the two dire brothers as the greatest threat to all of Cerilia since Deismaar. I'm still in the dark how this will unfold, but at the moment I'm thinking of the Cold Rider and the Gorgon as the two brothers in spirit. I guess the "Field Dead" describes the Shadow World quite well, once a living, vibrant world, now for practical human purposes as good as dead.

    Just my twopence.
    Last edited by Beruin; 04-16-2007 at 03:22 AM.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Beruin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    Hmm, I never really figured out whether the Tuornen prophecy referred to something I'd overlooked or was deliberately vague enough to be used wherever the DM wanted.

    In your case an easy (and therefore likely incorrect) reading would be:

    1. A terrible harvest leading to famine (and unrest, weakened army as gold is needed elsewhere)
    2. Death of a visionary priest-regent (possibly in unrest caused by the famine)
    3. The Priest being replaced by two weak lieutenants jockeying for power and splitting the church - making it unable to help in response to line 4...
    4.1. Invasion by an army lead by either undead led by 2 servants of one of the lost from the shadow world, or
    4.2. Invasion from the 5-Peaks like led by two awnsheghlien (individually weak, but brothers and so able to work together - for now) or
    4.3. Invasion by mercenaries led by two opportunistic Vos / Blackguards from Kal Saitharak, etc who see the realm in turmoil and seek to profit from it - possibly supported by a lord who wishes to destabilise the area and perhaps restore order after the carnage...


    Brothers being an elastic term in prophecy, including fosterlings, blood brothers, members of a rare order, etc in addition to kinsmen.

    I just had to quote this here as I like some of the ideas here and still wonder that it never occurred to me to link "Thin supper" to famine.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Beruin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dcolby View Post
    I always wondered is that what Maeve thinks? (or for that matter what or who the hell is Maeve..I have that already worked out for this Campaign but I am not at liberty as some of my players read this board)
    I would like to hear your take on Maeve, via email or private message.

    I see her as a protector of the land as a whole and decided to make her an ancient Rjurik druid in exile. I have a serious gender conflict within the Rjurik druid community IMC. The 'official' druids are all males and female druids only operate in secret and are regarded as witches. Maeve is maybe the only still living refugee from the original purging of the druid orders from females several centuries ago. She has taken to her new home and is now something like the ancient embodiment of the land, not really concerned with good or evil, but protective of the realm as a whole. Sometimes she can be caring for a simple individual, but she can also act cruelly if she deems it necessary.

  7. #7
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beruin View Post

    Here's what I did so far IMC:

    Ein stiller Träumer ruht auf dem kalten Stein.

    My players have consulted quite a few people trying to figure out the meaning and received a number of hints. The most important revelation was probably the underlying structure I decided for the prophecy:

    the second a possible source of help and assistance,

    "One Still Dreamer On a Cold Bed" refers to the grave of Michael Roele. I can't recall if there's an 'official' source describing what happened to Michael's body after his death, but IMC he was spirited away and buried in secret by his elven allies and the Chamberlain. The source of help might be his sword or banner that were buried with him, though I haven't decided the particulars yet.

    Just my twopence.
    Interestingly, Tuornen does have still dreamer in the player's secrets book - Dalton, first duke of Tuornen. (Page 28/9). His body never decayed and lies under the chapel in Haes.

    This could be a risk - the mystic connection between regent and land (particularly in this case between the first regent of a new realm) might not have been entirely severed, allowing an evil magus to manipulate the realm if they stole the body.

    Or it could be a benefit, perhaps the body yet retains part of its bloodline to be passed to a worthy heir (at which point the body will tidily turn to silver dust), alternatively he could yet live - and if restored heal the rift between Alamie and Tuornen that he caused with his feud with his brother).

    Of course if Berric somehow lived as well, then another line of the prophecy could be fulfilled - particularly if both rose as some form of undead rather than as fully alive...

  8. #8
    Senior Member Beruin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    Interestingly, Tuornen does have still dreamer in the player's secrets book - Dalton, first duke of Tuornen. (Page 28/9). His body never decayed and lies under the chapel in Haes.

    Of course if Berric somehow lived as well, then another line of the prophecy could be fulfilled - particularly if both rose as some form of undead rather than as fully alive...
    Great ideas here. I've read the Tuornen PS back and forth perhaps a dozen times, yet this connection never occurred to me.

    Hm, I need to think whether I can still include something like this IMC without violating the hints I already gave my players. But the idea is definitely saved for later use...

  9. #9

    Who is Maeve

    If anyone has read the unreleased official book on the shadow world there is an individual in there named Maeve also. Perhaps the same?

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