Technology

[kgauck]

In general the progress of advancement is so slow, research might produce a 5% gain after one or two dozen years of serious work by a dedicated specialist. Once in a great while a major innovation comes along, but this is more like DM fiat than the progress of reserach in one person's life time. Plus you have to research stuff where there is an ability to learn stuff. Plenty of research is done down wrong alleys in learning. Minor discoveries that are true and interesting, but have nothing to offer waterwheels or other practical applications.

Its much easier to hire experts and pay for exotic building materials than it is to re-invent the wheel, water or otherwise.

[geeman]

At 12:12 AM 11/29/2007, stv2brown1988 wrote:

>Would it be fair to consider these invovations part of a Research
>action by the PC regent? For example, Rogr Aglondier of Ilien may
>research the overshot mill or windmill to try to give Ilien an
>agriculture advantage of some sort. Maybe windmills for pumps to
>provide water for cattle? (I don`t know, I`m just reaching
>here...) Or how about the roman acqudects (sp?) to provide running
>water to homes/village squares, would this be a research domain
>action to invent and then a "Wonderous Structure" to build?

The short answer would be that as long as none of your players freak
out about it or abuse the process then sure, why not?

The longer answer has to do with how you want to break up the various
periods of technology and deal with research/development. There are
any number of ways that technological periods can be broken up, and
how one wants the domain system to address technological
progress. Game mechanically, here`s how I`ve done it in the past.

First, we need to come up with a rough breakdown of tech levels like this:

1 Stone Age
2 Bronze Age
3 Iron Age
4 Early Medieval
5 Late Medieval
6 Early Renaissance
7 Late Renaissance

These levels can vary depending on how one views world history,
development itself, how detailed you want to make things, or how hard
you want to make progress (as we`ll see in a minute.)

Second, it`s a good idea if one can also break technology into
specific categories:

Agriculture
Military
Nautical
Textiles
Etc.

The number and types of categories can again vary on how you see
things working. The more categories you have the more detailed you
can be, and the more difficult advancement will be.

After categories are defined then associate various types of
equipment or techniques to those levels and categories. Let`s say
one had "metallurgy" as a category. Access to various metals could
then be listed like this:

1 Minerals
2 Copper, bronze
3 Iron, crude steel
4 Standard steel
5 Refined steel
6 Fine (dwarven?) steel
7 Steel composites

Once we have these things defined, we can start to see how to use the
research action in a broader sense. Depending on how you organize
your categories and tech levels you have a way of describing the
technology of a given culture. These categories are all somewhat
arbitrary and general, so what categories you use will depend on the
major emphasis of your campaign. Like many other settings, it makes
sense for there to be a "Magic" category of technology even though it
might seem counter intuitive to some folks, but in the long run it`s
a good idea to include.

So in the system I`ve used a regent who rules over a predominately
early medieval culture (TL4) can perform a research action to produce
items made from refined steel which are normally reserved to the late
medieval tech (TL5.) However, these prototypes are going to be
costly despite his research action, because being able to prototype
an item isn`t nearly the same as having the broad infrastructure that
is represented by an actual increase in tech level, so as a rule of
thumb costs are tripled.

If you want to actually raise the tech level of a culture then
research actions are also the way to go, but the process is long and
costly. Raising tech level comes in one of two flavors:

1. Innovative. Innovative research and development has no existing
precedent. A Brecht regent, for example, might be at TL6 and already
be at the forefront of nautical technology. In order to raise his TL
from 6 to 7 he`d have to perform 36 research actions (his current
tech level squared.)

2. Diffused. Diffused research comes from a nearby realm or culture,
but must be learned, disseminated and an infrastructure created in
order to support it. Increasing tech level from 6 to 7 when it
already exists somewhere that the regent has access requires 6
research actions (his current tech level.)

There are a few other aspects to this system: No tech level in any
particular category can be higher than 2 levels of any other except
for "Magic" which can be very different. Tech level then also
becomes a factor in determining things like how high a regent can
rule up the population level in his provinces, but that`s a whole
other thing....

Gary

[Thelandrin]

Well, if you're going to use tech levels and split levels and suchlike, the GURPS system already has a complete system for technology and how to research it. Perhaps that would be worth looking at and converting?

[irdeggman]

IMC, Dwarves are the only culture that can use coal to smelt metal and only the Brecht and the Elves use a wheel to steer their ships, all other cultures use a tiller, which is a bit more awkward to handle, making Brecht and Elven ships a bit more maneuverable compared to similar ship designs of other cultures.

Elves - a sea faring race in BR?

They didn't "migrate" to Cerilia and after the human invasion their provinces are mostly land locked - leaving pretty much only river movement. Not much of an incentive to progress their ship mobility.

I could see Khinasi instead of elves - sea faring culture and highly educated.

Isn't smelting a prerequisite to manufacturing steel? So all of the "knightly" cultures (Khinasi and Anuirean specifically) would have to import "steel" from the dwarves. And of course the dwarves do not trade heavily with other cultures (except possibly the Brecht due to the sharing of housing in the caves during the winter {Dauren} - but that is more along the line of "technology and how to fine and work metals as opposed to actual materials).

[Beruin]

As they sail west they see the somkestacks of metal smelters...
If Dwarves are the only ones who can use coal for smelting, what do all of the copper and coke (is this coal?) mines in Brechtur do with their products? Is coal used for heating homes, if so how, in a fire place or stove?
<snip>
In Scotland didn't they use peat for heating homes? Is peat just dried out grass and something?

Isn't smelting a prerequisite to manufacturing steel? So all of the "knightly" cultures (Khinasi and Anuirean specifically) would have to import "steel" from the dwarves. And of course the dwarves do not trade heavily with other cultures (except possibly the Brecht due to the sharing of housing in the caves during the winter {Dauren} - but that is more along the line of "technology and how to fine and work metals as opposed to actual materials).

Coke is essentially baked coal. Look here for more information, while peat is not really grass, but consists of only partially decomposed plant materials. Look here.

With regard to smelting and steel production, I did not argue against smelting at all, just against the use of coal. Steel is basically an alloy based on iron, with a carbon content between 0.2 and 1.7%. To get from iron ore to steel, you first have to smelt the ore to get pig iron with a carbon content of about 4.5%. This is not yet workable and must be smelted again, covered with slag, to reduce the carbon content. The result is workable iron or steel with differing properties, depending on the exact carbon content and the presence of other metals like nickel and manganese.

Until the 18th century, only wood derived charcoal could be used to smelt iron ore (and would provide the necessary carbon component). The problem with coal or coke is that these also contain sulphur which ruins the iron in the smelting process, making it very brittle and unworkable.
To use coal for smelting iron, you must cleanly separate ore and coal and make sure that no smoke reaches the ore. This was difficult to achieve technically, and the process was only invented in 1709 in England, but only came into widespread use about 50 years later, with the start of the Industrial Revolution.

In RPGs, this is mostly ignored, but I found it fitting to implement into BR, it opens a number of new problems and possibilities. For example, both Avanil and Ghoere have large amounts of iron ore, but wood is becoming a scarce resource here, which must be carefully preserved or traded in. This also helps explain the large-scale deforestation in Anuire.

In effect, I have also given the dwarves a quite advanced technique, that really sets them apart from other cultures.

Coal can still be used for heating, for a number of other production processes like glass-making, and it might also be possible to smelt other metals with it (though I have to look this up), but on the whole, its importance for most cultures is limited. Coal mines certainly do exist, but are scarcer and not that profitable.

[Beruin]

Elves - a sea faring race in BR?

They didn't "migrate" to Cerilia and after the human invasion their provinces are mostly land locked - leaving pretty much only river movement. Not much of an incentive to progress their ship mobility.

I could see Khinasi instead of elves - sea faring culture and highly educated.

Well, yes, I do have seafaring elves in my Cerilia variant, but that's homegrown stuff. For official BR, I agree with you.

With regard to the Khinasi, I don't picture them has using a wheel to steer their ships, but they also have an advantage in advanced sail design and rigging.

[geeman]

At 02:37 AM 11/29/2007, Thelandrin wrote:

>Well, if you`re going to use tech levels and split levels and
>suchlike, the GURPS system already has a complete system for
>technology and how to research it. Perhaps that would be worth
>looking at and converting?

Sure, that`d be worthwhile. The thing that is important for BR
purposes is that the tech level numbers go with existing BR domain
level effects (the month long Research action in particular) while
the themes of the setting should be determine the categories of
technology employed. So if you can convert the GURPS system to make
it BR then by all means go for it.

Gary

[Lee]

In a message dated 11/29/2007 5:50:48 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET writes:

irdeggman wrote:
------------ QUOTE ----------
IMC, Dwarves are the only culture that can use coal to smelt metal


I`d change that to burning coke and making higher-quality steel, perhaps a
secret alloy or two. Like adamantium, in game terms.

Lee.



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[AndrewTall]

That said, I find it useful to use four interrelated general categories or terms to describe technological differences. These are quality, quantity, efficiency, and innovation.

Quality and quantity are both rather obvious. A more advanced society is able to produce a larger amount of commodities and goods of a better quality than a less advanced culture.

Like it! I'd note that quantity likely dictates population density, prevalence of goods etc; quality dictates type of goods available, versatility etc, innovation impacts responsiveness to change and therefore survivability over a prolonged period and likely social mobility and equity - but efficiency is the factor which impacts the economies actual wealth.

So for example nation A grows selectively grown carefully manured, etc grains using specifically bred beasts of burden, etc. Being very efficient each farmer can grow 10 'units' of grain on a farm of size 'X'. Country B grows rice, 10 farmers on the same size farm can grow 10 'units' of rice by constant care and attention. The people in Country A will in general be richer than in country B, leading to more leisure activities such as religion, art, wars, etc.

[Beruin]

First, we need to come up with a rough breakdown of tech levels like this:

<snip>
These levels can vary depending on how one views world history,
development itself, how detailed you want to make things, or how hard
you want to make progress (as we`ll see in a minute.)

Second, it`s a good idea if one can also break technology into
specific categories:

Agriculture
Military
Nautical
Textiles

The number and types of categories can again vary on how you see
things working. The more categories you have the more detailed you
can be, and the more difficult advancement will be.

After categories are defined then associate various types of
equipment or techniques to those levels and categories. Let`s say
one had "metallurgy" as a category. Access to various metals could
then be listed like this:

1 Minerals
2 Copper, bronze
3 Iron, crude steel
<snip>
Once we have these things defined, we can start to see how to use the
research action in a broader sense. Gary

Very nice ideas, Gary! I especially like your take on the research action, but I'd probably drop the requirement that no category can be more than two levels apart from each other - several cultures might have specialities in which they were quite advanced. Think of porcelain which was developed by the Chinese at least 800 years before Europeans were able to reproduce it.

For categories, I often use Aria Worlds as a reference, a quite obscure supplement for the early-Nineties-now-quite-dead-since-WotC-purchased-it Aria - Canticle of the Monomyth rpg, and it does something quite similar.

It uses 20 tech levels from Stone Age to Late Medieval/Early Renaissance and also assigns dominant materials for each level, ranging from 1: Stone & wood to 20: high-grade Iron / Steel.
It also breaks technology down in the following categories:

1. Power sources & Manufacturing
2. Agriculture & Environmental
3. Building Construction & Architecture
4. Transport & Communication
5. Military Innovation
6. Miscellaneous

Examples are given for each category and level, e.g. Gunpowder is Military 15, the Longbow Military 16, Windmills are Agriculture 16 and woodblock printing is Miscellaneous 14 . Breakthrough technologies that lead to other innovations or are able to seriously impact and change a society are highlighted.

The system is neat in itself, but imho needs some work for BR. Most BR cultures would already fall in the top 5-8 technology levels, and the system also lumps a lot of things together at higher tech levels. Granted, the pace of technological innovation took up speed with the start of the renaissance, but I wouldn't want my players to research too many things at once.

I believe we should also think about two more things:

1. What game effects do certain breakthrough technologies have, especially on the domain level?

Well, not all technologies might be directly employed, and for some, like gun powder, applications to use the innovation might first be necessary to research, but some technologies should also provide a small bonus on the domain level. In some cases this might simply be the ability to field a previously unavailable unit, like knights or heavy crossbowmen, but non-military innovations should also have a use. For instance the printing press might grant a non-priest regent a free agitate action like a priest or provide a bonus to agitate and decree actions. I believe we should try to come up with other examples.

2. Which technologies lead to other technologies and can we establish a chain of research actions that must be followed?

To explain what I mean, I'll use gunpowder as an example.
Once this breakthrough technology is developed, the developing regent must research applications for it. He might first use a research action to develop a weapon system that uses gunpowder, but still fires arrow-shaped objects (such devices were used by the Chines and the Mongols), he than has to come up with the idea to fire ball-shaped projectiles (another research action) and from there the first cannons and primitive handguns can be developed.

Such a chain of necessary research actions is of course a lot of work to develop for each and every technology, but I guess at least for major technologies it would be worthwhile to establish stepping stones.