Good And Evil In Anuire

[Osprey]

> While I see your point on this, IMO it causes more problems than it is
> worth. For instance why hasn`t someone tried this on Avan in order to
> increase their claim to the Iron Throne by stealing the Avan bloodline
> (i.e., Boeroune)?

I think this is exactly what people should do. I think that if Boeruine
were finally to succeed in his ancestors` ancient goals of committing
bloodtheft on Avan, it would literally increase his blood right to the
throne, and I think all the blooded scions of Cerilia would agree! In
Cerilia, divine right of kings is not only literally true, but also
quantifiable and transferrable.

I think the scions of Anuire would agree if the manner were noble - for instance, victory in single combat. If Boeruine assassinated Avan, he might strengthen his bloodline, but few would hail him as worthy to sit on the Iron Throne. Quite the opposite, I think. Boeruine would likely face unified opposition in his bid for emperor!

I tend to agree with Ken on this one - the methods are as important as the blood itself, although I think the bloodline score would go up through bloodtheft regardless of methods. Otherwise, bloodtheft wouldn't be nearly so feared.

For a workable compromise re. mechanics, you might rule that ignoble bloodtheft (especially concerning scions of Anduiras) still gains the normal increase to bloodline score, but it also incurs a loss of regency based on the deed, and the derivations of both scions' bloodlines. So cold-blooded murder by a scion of Anduiras, against a scion of Anduiras (such as Boeruine killing Avan in his sleep, or vice versa), might incur a Great Loss of Regency (which would counter some or all of the gains from bloodtheft, if not result in a net loss&#33.

And as mentioned before, such an act would be viewed as an atrocity by most Anuirean scions, and Boeruine would never have the collective support he needs to become emperor.

Bloodline is important, but not all-important. If it were that simple, the Emperor could simply be chosen as the regent with the strongest bloodline. But human politics must play a significant role as well to justify the current state of affairs in Anuire.

-Osprey

[ryancaveney]

On Thu, 2 Oct 2003, Kenneth Gauck wrote:



> Two people encountering each other lacks the ritual that I think is

> essential to the fate of states. War, in this view is a great ritual

> upon which is played the fate of states. With divinities like Haelyn,

> Cuiraecen, and Belinik, and looking back to Diesmaar, this seems

> appropraite. A ruler who is defeated in his bed does not risk his

> realm when there are able heirs with access to an army to employ has

> only lost his life. Did Oedipus gain Thebes because he was the son of

> Laius, because he killed Laius at the crossroads, or because he

> answered the riddle of the Sphinx? Should anyone who happens upon

> Laius and kill the old main gain the state of Thebes?



Thank you, Kenneth. I am considering a more direct reply for later, but

for now let me just say that posts like this one are a big part of the

reason I`m still reading this list. You have my sincere thanks for

sharing your erudite philosophy and illuminating issues I had not

previously considered in this way. I admit I often have a too-mechanistic

view of Cerilian metaphysics, and you help keep me balanced. =)



> I am not fond of so much encouragement for assasination.



I`m not fond of it either. I really hate the whole issue, and wish I

could just make it all go away. I just don`t see quite how: magic makes

it all too easy, and politics makes it all too useful. I suspect at least

part of the answer has to do with blood transference: defeat Avan with

glory and honor upon the field, gain much of his bloodline; murder him

secretly with despicable cowardice, gain none of his bloodline --

especially with Anduiras and Haelyn watching over all. Scions of Azrai`s

(and perhaps Brenna`s) derivation, OTOH, especially if ruling lands

inhabited by many worshippers of Eloele or Kriesha, should probably get

better results (more divine favor) by stealth than open battle.



> I want Louis of Hungary on the field at Mohacs to face the Turk. I

> want Harold and William at Hastings. I want Henry and the Dauphin at

> Agincourt.



So do I, especially with scions of Anduiras`s or Basaia`s blood -- but I

worry about how best to keep them there in the context of the other things.



> > if regent A abdicates and transfers his bloodline to commoner B,

> > who then becomes regent in A`s place, B *legally becomes* A.

>

> Roman adoption as means of succession. Welcome, Caesar Augustus.



Indeed! And that history indicates both adopters and adoptees as a group

seem to be substantially above average in terms of quality of rulership.

Non-dilution of the bloodline, perhaps? =)





Ryan Caveney

[Peter Lubke]

On Thu, 2003-10-02 at 23:03, the Falcon wrote:

> Both Gary`s and Kenneth`s comment have sent me thinking and an idea just

> popped into my head. It`s sort of a mix between both of their points of

> view.

>

> What if a bloodline is attracted to behavior that exemplifies the ideals of

> the deity from which it derives?



We`ve had this discussion before. I believe that the consensus was that

it did - given all supporting evidence, opinions etc etc.







Perhaps Michael Roele`s bloodpower could

> not be absorbed by the Gorgon simply because the whole way the act of

> bloodtheft was committed was so un-Anduiras-like that the blood just didn`t

> go for it. Add to that Michael Roele`s way of being exerted such a great



>

> Azrai`s bloodline on the other hand is a corrupting one. Not only that, it

> is a sneaky one. Azrai`s blood is willing to enter anyone, anywhere,

> anytime. Once stolen, it will however try to corrupt the bloodline into

> which it was absorbed and turn it to Azrai. In game terms, this would be

> expressed in an opposed blood check or something similar.



Yeah well, you have to have something (a mechanic) to express why

bloodtheft changes derivations/alignments at some times and not others.



Personally, I went the whole hog - removing a wide scathe of anomalies

and inconsistencies along the way - and decided that:

Only humans may have bloodlines with derivations other than that of

Azrai. The essence of the gods of the human tribes reaches into only the

humans. Azrai did not have a tribe of humans and represents the beasts

and base natures (monsters) - which includes all beings potentially, his

touch simply pulls them back toward his realm - any living being can be

touched with the derivation of Azrai.

[kgauck]

Ryan raised the question of whether the derivation of the bloodtheif

matters. I would turn that around and say that what matters is the

derivation of the victim. That Andurias bloodline will flow easily into the

noble challenger who wins the fair fight, and will resist flowing into

assasin. While the bloodlines of Azrai, and to a lessor extent, Brenna,

will flow into any recipient. This is what makes the danger of Azria`s

corruption so insidious.



Lost bloodlines are, I think redistributed by "the land". So the balance

between the bloodlines are never really altered, but that the most noble

bloodlines go to the most worthy, while Azrai`s bloodline is a creeping

menace.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[Doyle]

Even worshippers of Eloele or Kriesha would probably be

disinclined to hire assassins. Were they to consider how powerful an

assassin could potentially become, they would probably prefer taking

care of matters themselves. Consider a well planned assassination; it`s

midnight, the guards are sleeping due to the sleeping poison put in

their food, Avan is snoring in his bed. A sleep / hold person spell or

similar is used to ensure Avan does not wake while any alarm traps in

the room are disarmed. The target is prone: auto-kill - why not put the

dagger stroke through the heart?

Given the potential blood strength of an assassin, even as an

evil regent, I`d avoid hiring them and would quickly execute any found

within my borders.

My 2cp

Doyle.



-----Original Message-----

From: Ryan B. Caveney

<snip> I am not fond of so much encouragement for assasination.



I`m not fond of it either. I really hate the whole issue, and wish I

could just make it all go away. I just don`t see quite how: magic makes

it all too easy, and politics makes it all too useful. I suspect at

least

part of the answer has to do with blood transference: defeat Avan with

glory and honor upon the field, gain much of his bloodline; murder him

secretly with despicable cowardice, gain none of his bloodline --

especially with Anduiras and Haelyn watching over all. Scions of

Azrai`s

(and perhaps Brenna`s) derivation, OTOH, especially if ruling lands

inhabited by many worshippers of Eloele or Kriesha, should probably get

better results (more divine favor) by stealth than open battle.

[kgauck]

One of the nice benefits to limiting the effect of bloodtheft, especially

when not taken in open combat, is that nobles sometimes find themselves

prefering to use boy kings or to manipulate weak rulers. When one powerful

figure is able to sieze the throne, one presumes they probabaly will, but

when a group of nobles lacks the bloodstrength to rise above his peers, even

with whatever he might get from the death of the weak or child ruler, the

nobles will attempt to dominate the weak ruler and keep the legitimacy of

their rule, the strength of their bloodline for the future, and yet have

power now as well. If bloodtheft is too effective, too complete, there is

no use for boy kings and weak rulers.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[kgauck]

This thread had moved away from "how to craft a villain" a bit, but I want

to return to that to show how a friend can become a rival, and possibly a

villain.



I am going to relate the events of my own campaign based in Stjordvik. The

materials start off with a pro-royal camp, an anti-royal camp, and some

neutrals. One of the key neutrals was the Eorl Skjada One-Eye, who was won

over to Varri`s support when Eorl Guthrim openly rebelled against the crown.

But with the collapse of the anti-royal camp, players have noticed the

incredible influence of Skjada.

http://home.mchsi.com/~kgauck/taelshore/skjada.htm



As the description reveals, Skjada is Eorl of the largest province, is the

uncle of Hrafnhild of Udvika as well as the neighboring Count Thjobald

Bjondrig of that Dhoesone province. Skjada is the first cousin of Eorl

Olfjor. The Geardholder of Namverg`s grandson is being groomed to be the

next Eorl of that province in the house of Skjada. Skjada`s neice Hrafnhild

is very close with her cousin Arnora of Lofkirdik, so its possible that

Skjada could count Arnora as an ally as well.



The two Eorls who are cousins of Varri are Olfjor, who is still his most

open opponant, and Eorl Njall, the eorl of the zero-level province. Not

much help from his relations.



If Skaja is drawn towards the King, Varri`s power is solidified. If Skaja

becomes the leader of the new opposition, the realm remains divided.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com