Are battle spells overpowered?

[Shade]

At 05:13 PM 2/17/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>Lord Shade wrote:
>
>>>A level 1 Magician in 3E could without INT modifier memorize 2 level 1
>>>spells and so 2 "Rain of Magic Missililes".
>>>However Magic Missile and it´s battle magic counterparts power are very
>>>dependant on character level. A 1st level character gets only 1 Missile
>>>and the second at 3rd caster level (3E).
>>>
>>>The battle Magic version (2E Book of Magecraft) was even more limited as
>>>it gave the caster only 1missile for 6 levels.
>>>
>>>So a 1-5th level caster could do 1 H result to 1 unit. A 6th level
>>>caster 2 H results to one unit or 1 H to two units - firing this spell
>>>into a melee had the chance of friendly fire hitting the casters friends.
>>>
>>>I do not find that overpowering. An arcane caster inflicting 1 H result
>>>to an enemy in a whole battle which could take several turns with large
>>>armys? He could only wipe out e.g. scouts as they only can take 1 H and
>>>are gone. Most others will stay alive and keep fighting.
>>>
>>
>>...
>>
>>You don`t think the fact that a single 1st level, landless, sourceless,
>>unblooded MAGICIAN can wipe out a unit of 200 scouts with 1 spell is
>>overpowering?
>>
>Are 200 scouts in a unit, weak as they are? Even if so I do not think
>that arcane magic is too strong.
>Arcane Magic always was the destructive force as opposed to the divine
>healing magic (generally speaking).

I thought the general assumption was that a unit of soldiers consisted of
about 200 people. Correct me if I`m wrong, but I believe this is stated
somewhere in the BR rulebook.

>However that level 1 Magician would not simply walk on the battlefield
>and destroy a unit of scouts.
>There are prerequisites before that:
>
>1) The Magician has to know the conventional spell Magic Missile (not
>that hard but still requrires a successful spellcraft3E check if it is
>not one of the spells he started with)

This is a non-issue. Almost every 1st level wizard in any campaign I`ve
ever played in has magic missile as one of his starting spells. It is such
a useful and easy to cast spell that I would think its knowledge would be
widespread among magicians.

>2) The Magician must spend a RESEARCH action to research the battle
>magic version of the spell
>2E Book of Magecraft had 1 month per 3 levels, so at least 1 month
>research for the minimum of time. However the research check in 2E was
>that you succeed to learn the spell ONLY on a roll of a D20 on a 20 =
>only 5% chance!!!
>The chances could be improved by caster level (for every 3 caster levels
>reduce the required result by 1 (a level 1 Magician still has to throw a
>20).

Within two years of work, a Magician could easily learn the spell. Let`s
take a realm like Avanil, for example. Let`s just, for argument`s sake, say
it has a total population of 196,000 people (a province 7 alone has
80,000-100,000, right? Avanil has a 7th level province as well as 8 others
in the 3-5 range).

Avanil`s Provinces:
7 - 60,000
5 - 35,000
5 - 35,000
4 - 15,000
4 - 15,000
3 - 9,000
3 - 9,000
3 - 9,000
3 - 9,000

For a grand total of 196,000 people, using a conservative estimate for the
level 7 province (Anuire).

Let`s say that 2.5% of these people actually have an adventuring character
class (this is the standard assumption, right? correct me if I`m wrong.. it
is based on the Muden sourcebook numbers, which are the only data we have
to go on for Birthright).

That makes about 4900 characters that have an actual class and level (in 3e
terms, these are people with a PC character class). Let`s further assume
that the distribution is heavily weighted towards fighters and thieves, to
the tune of: 4 fighters:3 thieves: 2 clerics: 1 magician.

That gives us 490 magicians. Using the 50% rule (suggested in the Muden
sourcebook; this contradicts the 10% rule in the 2e DMG) to determine
levels, 245 of these are 1st level, 122 are 2nd level, 61 are 3rd level, 30
are 4th level, 15 are 5th level, and 7 are 6th level. ~3 are 7th level or
higher, and 17 are somewhere in between (fractions from dividing.)

Let`s assume that Darien Avan is a bright and enterprising regent,
determined to find every edge to help him win the Iron Throne. After all,
he has an Intelligence score of 16 and Charisma of 17. He should have no
problems finding people to support him, skilled as he is in leadership.

Let`s assume that he`s able to find a mere 5 magicians willing to work for
him and serve in the army, and that their average level is 3rd. This
represents 1% of the available magicians in the nation.

Avanil has an average province level of 4.1, so lets be generous and round
that up to 5. Each magician, using ply trade, can command a price of
(3x25x5=375gp/mo) for his services, which is roughly 1gb per season. If you
say that these magicians are actually lieutenants, the cost is quite a bit
lower (they count as holdings) and they could be significantly higher in
level. Darien Avan has a 17 charisma and a Great bloodline and could easily
support 5 magician lieutenants.

Since these magicians will succeed in their spell research on a base of
19-20, within 10 months they should succeed. However, every month they do
research and fail, their success chance improves by 1.

So
10%+15%+20%+25%+30%=100%, so by month 5 they should have succeeded, on
average. Just to be on the safe side, let`s say everyone makes it within 6
months (at which point their success chance is 14-20), or 2 domain turns.
Spending 1gb/mo/per magician, this is 30gb in expenditures (easy for
Avanil`s treasury, which is as mighty as the nation`s army, p.34 Ruins of
Empire) for research.

So after 2 domain turns, 30gb in gold spent on research (sunk costs), and
10gb in maintenance (ply trade for 6 months) costs, Darien Avan has a force
of 5 magicians that can each cast Rain of Magic Missiles twice per day.
Their spell progression is 3 2, and it is reasonable to assume that they
will have a 14 int (this gives them a bonus 1st level spell in both 3e and
2e/Player`s Option). so let`s assume they can cast 3 RMM per day, 1
phantasmal force/day, and 2-3 improved phantasmal forces (depending on if
it`s 2e or 3e). Actually, isn`t there a rule in 3e that says you can use a
higher level spell slot to memorize a lower level spell? If that is the
case they could conceivably memorize as many as 5 RMMs. In a 5 round
battle, that is up to 25 hits of damage.

Since Phantasmal force variants cause a fall back result, the magicians can
use these spells to protect themselves if things get too hairy in terms of
engagements (they will be accompanied by a unit of knights or elite
infantry, or be spread out among several units). Or, if Harald Khorien is
around, he`ll just use some kind of Wall spell or globe of invulnerability
to protect them while he casts his own battle spells.

So for the cost of 40gb in sunk costs, and 5gb/turn in maintenance, DA can
field a force that can automatically cause 2 hits of damage EVERY DAY.
Sure, this comes out to a single-man unit costing 8gb to muster and 1 to
maintain, but keep in mind these guys could just as easily memorize 2
invisibilities and go sneak up on units while they are sleeping, fire off
an RMM, and wipe out like 2 units every night.

You don`t think this is overpowered?

And keep in mind all the estimates I`ve made are on the conservative side,
and the costs could actually be quite a bit lower.

>The caster could reduce the required roll by 1 if he was a specialist
>from the school of the spell - however Magicians are specialists in
>Illusion and Divination and Magic Missisle was Evocation, so still no
>help for the 1st level Magician
>The caster could reduce the required roll by spending RP and/or GB - the
>Magician in your example, landless, sourceless has certainly neither.
>The caster could reduce the required roll for each time he tried before
>to learn the spell (and failed).
>
>That is awfully difficult and time-consuming for a Magician who tries to
>research a battlespell not from the Illusion/Divination school.
>
>In addition the memorized battle spell took up one spell slot of the
>Magician so that he can cast less conventional magic - rendering him
>nearly defenceless.
>
>>If battle magic is THIS strong, I don`t understand how elves ever lose
>>battles...
>>
>They have no Magicians, as they are all able to become 2E Wizards (no
>bloodline requirement for sidhelien).

So this makes it even easier for elves to learn battle magic, as they don`t
have to deal with the inherent restrictions of magicians.

Take for example Llaeddra, an 18th level wizard. As powerful as battle
spells are, she could easily wipe out a 25-unit army by HERSELF. Now
consider that in Ruins of Empire, only Avanil has a 25-unit army, and that
is considered "huge."

All Llaeddra would have to do would be to cast fly, improved invisibility,
and otiluke`s resilient sphere (or similar defensive spell) and then
proceed to rain down unholy terror on the 25 units below.

And that assumes she`s the only mage. What if there are 2 other 10th level
wizards with her (not unreasonable for an elven realm?)

I don`t buy your breeding rates argument. If battle magic is as powerful as
written, a tiny handful of elves could easily slaughter vast numbers of
humans very quickly. An 18th level wizard could easily kill a couple
thousand humans each day on the battlefield with her normal complement of
spells (1 meteor swarm = 1 dead unit, several fireballs, 5-6 rains of magic
missiles, etc etc etc)

The only argument that would make sense from this perspective is the one
about the gods taking physical form. Even an 18th level wizard doesn`t
really compare to the power of an avatar.

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[ConjurerDragon]

Lord Shade wrote:

>At 05:13 PM 2/17/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>
>>Lord Shade wrote:
>>
>I thought the general assumption was that a unit of soldiers consisted of
>about 200 people. Correct me if I`m wrong, but I believe this is stated
>somewhere in the BR rulebook.
>
The general assumption was that it could differ. 50 Knights, 200 foot
soldiers, 600 peasants armed with pitchforks (no real combat value but 3
hits in 2E). All could be a warcard. I just assumed without even
thinking about that scouts are not many and those few who normally are
scattered throughout the land to do the scouting are, when brought
together to form a warcard unit perhaps less than 200 men.
The PS of Talinie mentions for example a unit of scouts which is divided
up into small subgroups to do the scouting. In my opinion scouts who do
scouting should not be able to join a battle as a warcard unit - either
they are sneaking through the woods or they are at one place together...

>>1) The Magician has to know the conventional spell Magic Missile (not
>>that hard but still requrires a successful spellcraft3E check if it is
>>not one of the spells he started with)
>>
>This is a non-issue. Almost every 1st level wizard in any campaign I`ve
>ever played in has magic missile as one of his starting spells. It is such
>a useful and easy to cast spell that I would think its knowledge would be
>widespread among magicians.
>
Perhaps. But perhaps NPC Magicians do not think about usefulness for
battle?
Magicians are specialized Illusionists and Diviners - In my opinion most
of them would use what they could do better than wizards - Illusions and
Divinations and make a living with that spells. Certainly lots of minor
nobles (as mentioned in the Book of Magecraft) have hired a "Court"
Magician to have for entertainment and divinations. This also reduces
the number available for battlecaster Magicians.

>Within two years of work, a Magician could easily learn the spell. Let`s
>take a realm like Avanil, for example. Let`s just, for argument`s sake, say
>it has a total population of 196,000 people (a province 7 alone has
>80,000-100,000, right? Avanil has a 7th level province as well as 8 others
>in the 3-5 range).
>
Aaargh, statistics....
When hearing such stuff, I have always to think of two things:
Winston Churchill saying "I do not believe in statistice I did not forge
myself" and
the example of the three woman at the doctor of which 1 was pregnant -
meaning that statistically the other 2 were pregnant to 1/3rd... ;-)

>Let`s say that 2.5% of these people actually have an adventuring character
>class (this is the standard assumption, right? correct me if I`m wrong.. it
>is based on the Muden sourcebook numbers, which are the only data we have
>to go on for Birthright).
>That makes about 4900 characters that have an actual class and level (in 3e
>terms, these are people with a PC character class). Let`s further assume
>that the distribution is heavily weighted towards fighters and thieves, to
>the tune of: 4 fighters:3 thieves: 2 clerics: 1 magician.
>
In 3E it is easily possible that you would also find a 1st level
expert/1st level magician - which would mean that the whole calculation
would become much more complicated and Magicians rarer. Is not in the 2E
Birthright book mentioned, that lots of Magicians are not Magicians from
the start, but sometimes an old sage sees promised in person (which
perhaps already is a 1st level commoner or expert) or that a Wizard
takes someone as apprentice who seems to make a good caster (who perhaps
is already a 1st level rogue)?

However not only the PS of Müden has numbers. The PS of Talinie has
some, too on p. 18:
"Adventurers are rare in Talinie (and this is a frontier land, while
Avanil´s central provinces are quite rural and peaceful IMO). No more
than five or six people per hundred have a character class and level,
AND ONLY A FEW PER THOUSAND EVER BECOME ADVENTURERS AND RISE ABOVE 3RD
LEVEL."
95% live off the land or ply humble trades in the town (= 3E commoners?)
4% self-satisfied trades workers and merchants (= 3E experts? low level
rogues)
1% (Aristocrat (lord and guilder), lots of Clerics as Talinie is a
theocracy)
The remaining 0% is perhaps True Wizards (likely ONLY Torele Anviras)
and others...

>Avanil has an average province level of 4.1, so lets be generous and round
>that up to 5. Each magician, using ply trade, can command a price of
>(3x25x5=375gp/mo) for his services, which is roughly 1gb per season.
>
If he does not spend anything for other things. Have you considered
upkeep (variant p. 142 3E DMG) and that for research you need rooms, and
perhaps access to a library or laboratory - to which in 2E only regents
had automatic access, not simple 1st level Magicians about whom we started.

>If you
>say that these magicians are actually lieutenants, the cost is quite a bit
>lower (they count as holdings) and they could be significantly higher in
>level. Darien Avan has a 17 charisma and a Great bloodline and could easily
>support 5 magician lieutenants.
>
If a NPC character can earn a certain amount of gold alone, then I doubt
that he will work for less if employed without good reasons -
Lieutenants normally do not cost extra, but they can and should in case
of spellcasters or highlevel other characters.
However a Magician is not an effective general and having only Magicians
as lieutenants will bring Avan the scorn of his counts who are certainly
fighters/Aristocrat(Lords), and perhaps the army. In addition who
administeres his realm, who manages clerical affairs? Lieutenants
normally resemble an adventuring party in that they compensate each
others weaknesses.

A considerable number of Magicians could be drawn to the Imperial
College of Sorcery simply to study or teach, not walk on corpses.

>Since these magicians will succeed in their spell research on a base of
>19-20,
>
why 19-20? The 2E Book of Magecraft says you learn the spell on a 20
only. Are you referring to another rule?

> within 10 months they should succeed.
>
On AVERAGE - which means that other Magicians will take much longer
while some are ready earlier.

> However, every month they do
>research and fail, their success chance improves by 1.
>So
>10%+15%+20%+25%+30%=100%, so by month 5 they should have succeeded, on
>average.
>
Again, why 10 and not 5? They succeed on a 20 only as Magic Missile is
not in their school of specialty and we assume a 1st level Magician here.
You know that the chance of 100% success is VERY different that the
chance of 10%, then 15 then 20, then 25, then 30%?
Having for example a chance of 50% for success is much better than 2
chances of 25%.

>Since Phantasmal force variants cause a fall back result, the magicians can
>use these spells to protect themselves if things get too hairy in terms of
>engagements (they will be accompanied by a unit of knights or elite
>infantry, or be spread out among several units). Or, if Harald Khorien is
>around, he`ll just use some kind of Wall spell or globe of invulnerability
>to protect them while he casts his own battle spells.
>
A globe of invulnerability as the conventional spell is a 6th level
spell (3E) and Harald is as far as I remember only a 4th level caster.
Even the Minor Globe of I is a 4th level spell and beyond a 4th level
caster like Harald. Even then the spell is only protection against magic
- several Magicians on the battlefield would be what an adventures party
likely would be used for to be eliminated to bring action to some
non-regent PC´s :-)

Another thought: If they memorize their maximum of spells for Rain of
Magic Missiles, who casts the Phantasmal Force you mentioned?

>So for the cost of 40gb in sunk costs, and 5gb/turn in maintenance, DA can
>field a force that can automatically cause 2 hits of damage EVERY DAY.
>Sure, this comes out to a single-man unit costing 8gb to muster and 1 to
>maintain, but keep in mind these guys could just as easily memorize 2
>invisibilities and go sneak up on units while they are sleeping, fire off
>an RMM, and wipe out like 2 units every night.
>You don`t think this is overpowered?
>
No. ;-)
IF they can do it, every other regent can, too. Balance.
However battlespells are not intended for use offside the battlefield as
the Book of Magecraft strongly suggests - and in the last PBEM I played
(COG II) even the normal Invisibility spell was not that effective,
using the variant in which it only gave camouflage and not true
invisibility.

And IF they could sneak up invisibly through guard perimeters to a
camping army, what would it bring them? (you did assume that no army or
would leave it´s camp unguarded, and remembered that invisible does not
mean undetectable by noise or leaving footprints in wet grass or such?).
Camping an army in old times could be spread out in tents to a much
larger extent than a combat unit in close order on the battlefield -
meaning that a battlespell, (even IF allowed by the DM to be used by a
single caster) would to an extent be wasted on empty grass as giving
only one argument which the DM could use to say that a single Magician
can´t do that outside the battlefield.

>And keep in mind all the estimates I`ve made are on the conservative side,
>and the costs could actually be quite a bit lower.
>
With statistics everything can be proven that one can imagine ;-)
bye
Michael Romes

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[Eosin the Red]

>>>>>Let`s say that 2.5% of these people actually have an adventuring character class (this is the standard assumption, right? correct me if I`m wrong.. >>>>>

>>>>>P 18----"Adventurers are rare in Talinie .No more than five or six people per hundred have a character class and level, AND ONLY A FEW PER THOUSAND EVER BECOME ADVENTURERS AND RISE ABOVE 3RD LEVEL."

>>>>95% live off the land or ply humble trades in the town (= 3E commoners?)4% self-satisfied trades workers and merchants (= 3E experts? low level rogues) 1% (Aristocrat (lord and guilder), lots of Clerics as Talinie is a Theocracy)The remaining 0% is perhaps True Wizards (likely ONLY Torele Anviras)and others...>>>>>


This raises a good question: levels are viewed much differently in 3E than they were in 2E. How do others see the breakdown as it relates to Birthright, the charts in the DMG are only useful to a certian level and do not reflect the inherently rare magic assumption?

My shot --

95% Commoners, Warriors, or Experts (less than 4th level)
4% Experts, Nobles, or Non-magical PC Classed Characters (3rd-8th)
0.99% PC Classed Characters + magicians, bards, shamans.
0.01% PC Classed Spell casters (Cleric/Mage/Sorc/Druid).

I would be interested in seeing what others think.

Eosin the Red

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[Moonunit921]

IMHO, your percentages for spellcasters do seem a little rare, keeping in mind that in 3ed you can have multiclass spellcasters as mentioned earlier. .001%? One in a thousand? By the above estimate that would be only 196 spellcasters in Avanil, including churchmen, magicians or wizards and apprentices (don't forget the Imperial College of Sorcery - it's got to have more than 3 or 4 students!), adepts, druids, etc... Extend that to other realms. One in a thousand elves able to cast magic? And shouldn't each tribe of 30 or 40 goblins have an adept handy?

Just playing devil's adovcate here - don't burn me!

BTW, keeping on thread here, I see no problem having battle spells capable of wiping out entire armies - read some classical fiction and you'll see just that. Lone wizards defending the realm against oncoming hordes and all that. Makes the wizard just that more dangerous and respectable - don't piss him off. And if you're on the other side, just make sure you brought your own pet wizard with you to keep him busy!

Lastly, as for having invisible, flying, sweet-smelling magicians or whatever sneaking into the middle of an enemy camp and casting BATTLE SPELLS to wipe them out is easy to eliminate - where's the BATTLE to cast the spell in? Doesn't RMM require apprentices and large material components? Don't all of them, basically? And they take 3 rounds 2ed time to cast, so wouldn't that be 3 minutes 3ed casting time? I wouldn't want to be in the middle of an enemy camp with 5 apprentices chanting war cries for three mintues hoping not to be heard so I could injure a couple hundred men. Not good karma.

Enough ranting.:) ([_]

[Moonunit921]

GERK! Misread that last percentage, but my premise still stands firm.;)

[ConjurerDragon]

Eosin the Red wrote:

>...
>
>This raises a good question: levels are viewed much differently in 3E than they were in 2E. How do others see the breakdown as it relates to Birthright, the charts in the DMG are only useful to a certian level and do not reflect the inherently rare magic assumption?
>My shot --
>95% Commoners, Warriors, or Experts (less than 4th level)
>4% Experts, Nobles, or Non-magical PC Classed Characters (3rd-8th)
>0.99% PC Classed Characters + magicians, bards, shamans.
>0.01% PC Classed Spell casters (Cleric/Mage/Sorc/Druid).
>I would be interested in seeing what others think.
>Eosin the Red
>
That could by DM decisions of course be different for any realm as
statistical values are only average values.

A thing to remember is, that in 2E core anyone with an INT of 9+ could
be a wizard.
In 2E Birthright True Wizards had the same INT9+ requirement and to be
of elven descendant or being blooded which made them extremely rare.
Magicians were added as wielders of lesser magic.

However Magicians had VERY steep requirements: INT 12+, DEX 12+, WIS
14+!!! as they were supposed to be able to work very hard to be arcane
casters without a bloodline and were specialists in two schools.

So even the number of True Wizards PLUS Magicians together will never be
as high as the number of Wizards in other worlds.

And while PC´s, their lieutenants and their important enemies might be
"elite" characters receiving 32 buy points for abilities in 3E, easily
being able to become either a blooded wizard or a Magician, most other
characters will not be among the elite and receive only 28, 22 or even
only 15 points and have little to spend on other scores.

I would like to suggest to add a similar restriction for those who want
to be a Magician, as there were in 2E - not just everyone should be able
to become a Magician- the only current restriction is that the
characters has to have 10+ INT or he will not be able to cast all the
spells. Adding the old 2E requirements would mean that 15 buypoint
characters, putting a 12 in DEX (4 points), 14 in WIS (6 points) and 8
in other scores will have only 5 left for INT - that means they have a
maximum INT of only 13! This will effectively prevent large numbers of
NPC Magicians, as most non-elite characters will never be able to become
Magicians able to cast highlevel spells.
bye
Michael Romes

bye
Michael Romes

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