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  1. #1
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    Times for performing actions are either a domain round, or free. This can
    be interpeted as allowing infinite free actions in a domain turn. A
    solution I`ve seen is to limit free actions to the character`s level.

    A solution I like better is to clock actions in terms of days. A Cerilian
    month is 32 days, so 96 days are available each turn to operate in.

    When listing an action in days, it doesn`t mean you spend a solid 8 or 12
    hours working on it, x days in a row, and it`s done. A Decree that takes
    a day would probably be drafted in an evening after dinner with a couple
    of close advisors, reviewed a couple of days later during the Duke`s Court
    for public comment, copies sent out to vassals thereafter, they`d have a
    chance to stop by in a week or so and note their concerns, then it gets
    sent to the clerk for proper writing up, and finally is read aloud by the
    Duke`s herald from the steps of the manor while the Duke looks on in
    approval, maybe a month after he originally conceived the idea. Total
    time expended, maybe a day of effort.

    Domain actions take three weeks (24 days on Cerilia).

    Realm actions take a full month (32 days).

    `Free` actions take a day, in general.

    Character actions like travel or adventuring can be clocked in terms of
    days out of the court, and may or may not interfere with getting in a full
    3 domain actions in a season.

    I might make a change such as having declare war be 1 day, move troops 1
    day per war move per army group, unless the regent is leading the troops,
    in which case each war move takes 8 days. Have to think about that one.

    A lieutenant adds 3 weeks to the regent`s total. Adding more lieutenants
    doesn`t give `more time` because at that point the regent is eating into
    his own work time checking on numerous lackeys each day, and there`s no
    net gain.

    Other possibilities:
    -Collecting taxes takes a week, or perhaps a day/holding.
    -Running a trade route(s) takes time, a day/route maybe.
    -Realm spells could take 24 days to cast, unless your holding is higher
    than the required level, then casting time is less. Alchemy requires a
    source (1); Cast it from a source (5) and you can grind it out in 5 days.
    That could be abusable, hmm.
    -Priests might lose 4 days/month, 12 total, because of responsibilities on
    weekly holy days, but their free agitate is included in those days.
    -Build or Fortify could take a day per GB you spend that turn.
    -Mustering EACH unit takes a day, not 1 day/whole muster.
    --
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    Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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  2. #2
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    daniel mcsorley wrote:

    >Times for performing actions are either a domain round, or free. This can
    >be interpeted as allowing infinite free actions in a domain turn. A
    >solution I`ve seen is to limit free actions to the character`s level.
    >
    This is the same as was written on the cardboard that came with the
    Birthright boxed set listing the domain turn:
    1 free action per character level per domain turn

    >A solution I like better is to clock actions in terms of days. A Cerilian
    >month is 32 days, so 96 days are available each turn to operate in.
    >When listing an action in days, it doesn`t mean you spend a solid 8 or 12
    >hours working on it, x days in a row, and it`s done. A Decree that takes
    >a day would probably be drafted in an evening after dinner with a couple
    >of close advisors, reviewed a couple of days later during the Duke`s Court
    >for public comment, copies sent out to vassals thereafter, they`d have a
    >chance to stop by in a week or so and note their concerns, then it gets
    >sent to the clerk for proper writing up, and finally is read aloud by the
    >Duke`s herald from the steps of the manor while the Duke looks on in
    >approval, maybe a month after he originally conceived the idea. Total
    >time expended, maybe a day of effort.
    >
    Or it might be an important law, negotiated with several regents who are
    affected (who may have influential friends or be protegees of the
    neighbouring landed regent), which is carefully worded by the regents
    numerous courtiers and advisers to avoid legal loopholes and could take
    several month and perhaps even a prior diplomacy action before the
    decree is issued to the public - everything is possible depending on how
    you play.

    >Domain actions take three weeks (24 days on Cerilia).
    >Realm actions take a full month (32 days).
    >`Free` actions take a day, in general.
    >
    Or none at all, when all the regent does is let the action perform by
    his court - the regent certainly loses no time when his minor nobles
    muster men to be trained as soldiers throughout the regents provinces.

    >Character actions like travel or adventuring can be clocked in terms of
    >days out of the court, and may or may not interfere with getting in a full
    >3 domain actions in a season.
    >I might make a change such as having declare war be 1 day,
    >
    Or just leave it with a full month action, as it is not only "declaring
    war" (= telling your enemy "I come now over the border!"), not even only
    a formal, traditional declaration of war by sending a herald informing
    your enemy that you will solve your quarrel by military force - no, it
    can be seen as the whole preparation of war.

    The military planning of which troops move, when, where. The
    establishing of supply routes to enable your troops to operate in
    foreign territorry without running out of food, arrows or simple things
    as horseshoes or even nails for horseshoes.

    In my opinion it would be best to not only leave the "Declare War"
    action as a domain action, which can only be performed by the regent
    himself, but to make it a realm action - this would explain why no
    lieutenant can declare war.

    >Other possibilities:
    >-Collecting taxes takes a week, or perhaps a day/holding.
    >
    For whom? For the regent? Do you imagine Prince Avan, collecting 10 eggs
    from the peasant working the field in a small village in northeastern
    Daulton, because that peasant has no coin, only goods to give as tax? I
    do not - even the Sheriff of Nottingham would send his men to "tax" the
    population and not ride out personally and so spend no time doing it.

    >-Running a trade route(s) takes time, a day/route maybe.
    >
    Again: For whom does it take time? When the trade route is set up and
    established, then the employees of the guild of XY are travelling with
    their wagons between a and b and buying/selling wares to produce the
    profit of the trade route. The regent only spent time when he created
    the trade route, he does not run the trade route personally.

    >-Realm spells could take 24 days to cast, unless your holding is higher
    >than the required level, then casting time is less. Alchemy requires a
    >source (1); Cast it from a source (5) and you can grind it out in 5 days.
    >That could be abusable, hmm.
    >
    You would need a source 1 to create Alchimists Fire or Acid? You do not
    even need to be a wizard to learn alchemy so why have a source for it?
    Or do you mean the realm spell "Alchemy" and not the skill Alchemy? Even
    then why would a wizard exchange RP to GB at a cost of 1:4 when he can
    sell his labour/spells for a better exchange rate (hey, landed regent, I
    cast that spell -costing him say 5 RP- and he demands and gets 6 GB from
    the landed regent or guilder or whomever).

    >-Priests might lose 4 days/month, 12 total, because of responsibilities on
    >weekly holy days, but their free agitate is included in those days.
    >-Build or Fortify could take a day per GB you spend that turn.
    >-Mustering EACH unit takes a day, not 1 day/whole muster.
    >
    Mustering takes only 1 day? You are referring to the american civil wars
    minuteman are you? ;-)
    bye
    Michael

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  3. #3
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    On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, Michael Romes wrote:
    > >Times for performing actions are either a domain round, or free. This can
    > >be interpeted as allowing infinite free actions in a domain turn. A
    > >solution I`ve seen is to limit free actions to the character`s level.
    > >
    > This is the same as was written on the cardboard that came with the
    > Birthright boxed set listing the domain turn:
    > 1 free action per character level per domain turn

    Hmm, I`ve played in enough pbems that didn`t have a limit that it blew my
    mind. And it`s not in the rulebook, which is wierd, I don`t remember the
    last time I looked at that card. Good catch.

    > Or it might be an important law, negotiated with several regents who are
    > affected (who may have influential friends or be protegees of the
    > neighbouring landed regent), which is carefully worded by the regents
    > numerous courtiers and advisers to avoid legal loopholes and could take
    > several month and perhaps even a prior diplomacy action before the
    > decree is issued to the public - everything is possible depending on how
    > you play.

    Diplomacy is an action of its own already.

    > >I might make a change such as having declare war be 1 day,
    >
    > Or just leave it with a full month action, as it is not only "declaring
    > war" (= telling your enemy "I come now over the border!"), not even only
    > a formal, traditional declaration of war by sending a herald informing
    > your enemy that you will solve your quarrel by military force - no, it
    > can be seen as the whole preparation of war.

    I don`t think that it`s preparation, because there`s no lag between the
    action of `declaring war` and being able to move your troops out. The
    preparations of war and logistics are more subsumed in the move troops
    cost, and the maintenance cost of troops.

    > >Other possibilities:
    > >-Collecting taxes takes a week, or perhaps a day/holding.
    >
    > For whom? For the regent? Do you imagine Prince Avan, collecting 10 eggs
    > from the peasant working the field in a small village in northeastern
    > Daulton, because that peasant has no coin, only goods to give as tax? I
    > do not - even the Sheriff of Nottingham would send his men to "tax" the
    > population and not ride out personally and so spend no time doing it.

    Eh? Like he could do it all in a day anyway? The day metaphor isn`t just
    the lord`s own time, it represents the attention of his government and
    aides, and the time he spends managing those apparatuses of power. The BR
    rules use the regent as the personification of the realm, and I`m
    following the same convention.

    > When the trade route is set up and established, then the employees of
    > the guild of XY are travelling with their wagons between a and b and
    > buying/selling wares to produce the profit of the trade route. The
    > regent only spent time when he created the trade route, he does not
    > run the trade route personally.

    And it`s a pretty large benefit to guilders for a one-time cost,
    especially since they get RP from it too. I was suggesting it should take
    more effort for the guilders than just an initial setup which provides
    perpetual income.

    > You would need a source 1 to create Alchimists Fire or Acid? You do not
    > even need to be a wizard to learn alchemy so why have a source for it?
    > Or do you mean the realm spell "Alchemy" and not the skill Alchemy?

    Glad to see you figured that one out on your own. ;)

    > Even then why would a wizard exchange RP to GB at a cost of 1:4 when
    > he can sell his labour/spells for a better exchange rate (hey, landed
    > regent, I cast that spell -costing him say 5 RP- and he demands and
    > gets 6 GB from the landed regent or guilder or whomever).

    How would I know? I pulled an example spell, and it happened to be the
    first one on the list. Why they would cast it is totally beside the
    point: Might a realm spellcaster be able to cast low-requirements spells
    faster, if he has a powerful holding to do it? If you don`t like it, you
    could leave all the realm spells at a 24 day casting time, as regular
    domain actions.

    > >-Mustering EACH unit takes a day, not 1 day/whole muster.
    >
    > Mustering takes only 1 day? You are referring to the american civil
    > wars minuteman are you? ;-)

    The minutemen were revolutionary war. :) But as you pointed out above,
    it doesn`t take much effort on the government`s part to assemble a mere
    200 soldiers from a province of thousands, especially when the duke has
    feudal vassals underneath him with their own pre-existing bodies of
    soldiers. Which is why it was a free action in the original rules. I
    don`t think they`d actually become available until later.
    --
    Communication is possible only between equals.
    Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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  4. #4
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    daniel mcsorley wrote:

    >On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, Michael Romes wrote:
    >
    >>Or it might be an important law, negotiated with several regents who are
    >>affected (who may have influential friends or be protegees of the
    >>neighbouring landed regent), which is carefully worded by the regents
    >>numerous courtiers and advisers to avoid legal loopholes and could take
    >>several month and perhaps even a prior diplomacy action before the
    >>decree is issued to the public - everything is possible depending on how
    >>you play.
    >>
    >Diplomacy is an action of its own already.
    >
    Yes. And it could be seen as that a regent who issues a decree/law
    without using diplomacy first is not caring for the wishes of his fellow
    regents, an Autocrat...

    >>>I might make a change such as having declare war be 1 day,
    >>>
    >>Or just leave it with a full month action, as it is not only "declaring
    >>war" (= telling your enemy "I come now over the border!"), not even only
    >>a formal, traditional declaration of war by sending a herald informing
    >>your enemy that you will solve your quarrel by military force - no, it
    >>can be seen as the whole preparation of war.
    >>
    >
    >I don`t think that it`s preparation, because there`s no lag between the
    >action of `declaring war` and being able to move your troops out. The
    >preparations of war and logistics are more subsumed in the move troops
    >cost, and the maintenance cost of troops.
    >
    So because the game mechanics lack a delay between "Declare War" and the
    first possible movement of troops you assume that "declare war" is not
    taking so long? Would you have seen it else, if the game mechanics would
    say a regent uses declare war and can march his troops next season to
    show the importance of planning?

    The game mechanics of the 2E rules do also change loyalty for example
    only at the start of the domain turn in the loyalty phase - equally what
    the regent does in the 3 action rounds he has, the people start hating
    or loving him next season - it´s very abstract and the Declare War
    action is nearly as abstract in my eyes.

    >>When the trade route is set up and established, then the employees of
    >>the guild of XY are travelling with their wagons between a and b and
    >>buying/selling wares to produce the profit of the trade route. The
    >>regent only spent time when he created the trade route, he does not
    >>run the trade route personally.
    >>
    >
    >And it`s a pretty large benefit to guilders for a one-time cost,
    >especially since they get RP from it too.
    >
    No, they COULD get RP from it - that´s an important difference. Most
    rogues/thiefs/guilders have bloodlines which can exactly reap the RP
    from their guild holdings. Creating trade routes creates income, but to
    collect RP the bloodline has to be enhanced which can take years
    depending on which rule is used, to collect the full possible amount of
    RP from trade routes.
    bye
    Michael

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  5. #5
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    The problem with the Declare War action is that it automatically grants 4 war moves in the same round (that is 4 more weeks of actions). Hence the regent declaring war automatically gets 2 domain actions at once. Also the war moves are carried out "after" all of the domain actions are resolved - so if another regent was performing a domain action that affected the war it didn't really have an affect. There was not a lot of real play testing going into the "original" rules.:)
    Duane Eggert

  6. #6
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    Everyone gets four war moves every turn - the only difference with the
    Declare War action is that your troops may enter hostile territory. Thus,
    anyone can defend themselves without taking a Declare War action. In fact,
    as long as you don`t need to move troops - you can keep up hostile action,
    such as occupation or siege, without performing a Declare War action,
    either.

    /Carl

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
    To: <BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
    Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 4:05 PM
    Subject: Re: Domain/Realm/Free actions [2#1191]


    > This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
    > You can view the entire thread at:
    http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1191
    >
    > irdeggman wrote:
    > The problem with the Declare War action is that it automatically grants 4
    war moves in the same round (that is 4 more weeks of actions). Hence the
    regent declaring war automatically gets 2 domain actions at once. Also the
    war moves are carried out "after" all of the domain actions are resolved -
    so if another regent was performing a domain action that affected the war it
    didn`t really have an affect. There was not a lot of real play testing
    going into the "original" rules.:)
    >
    >
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  7. #7
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    On Sun, 2003-01-05 at 02:05, irdeggman wrote:

    This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
    You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1191

    irdeggman wrote:
    The problem with the Declare War action is that it automatically grants 4 war moves
    in the same round (that is 4 more weeks of actions). Hence the regent declaring war
    automatically gets 2 domain actions at once. Also the war moves are carried out
    "after" all of the domain actions are resolved - so if another regent was performing
    a domain action that affected the war it didn`t really have an affect. There was not
    a lot of real play testing going into the "original" rules.:)

    Nah, it does not, and they do not.

    I must say that I had once thought that too on a first (or even second
    reading) of the rulebook. But you can`t move troops normally and then
    use them in a war move - it`s one or the other. Also, any troops that
    have moved "normally" (as free troop movements) can be retrospectively
    "unmoved" after an opponents war moves - more correctly after "all"
    opponents war moves.

    The order of a war move ("after") is a convenience of sequence but does
    not denote any real marching order. It`s main purpose is in fact to
    inform other regents that they may need to respond to war moves from
    that regent. Although they may move troops normally through free actions
    they can also "take back" that move.

    So war moves start with all regents troops unmoved (or potentially so).

    The order of domain initiative is no longer important. The aggressor(s)
    moves first - the defender(s) respond during - and then moves his own
    troops - if the defender has also declared war he may respond by moving
    troops into enemy territory in the hopes of gaining aggressor status for
    the next war move - otherwise he may move troops normally. No unit may
    be moved more than once, a unit may not retreat from an enemy move and
    then move itself - if engaged and choosing not to respond it may not
    move (from province to province).


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    On Sun, 2003-01-05 at 04:16, Stephen Starfox wrote:

    Everyone gets four war moves every turn - the only difference with the
    Declare War action is that your troops may enter hostile territory. Thus,
    anyone can defend themselves without taking a Declare War action.



    In fact,
    as long as you don`t need to move troops - you can keep up hostile action,
    such as occupation or siege, without performing a Declare War action,
    either.

    That`s being very rules-lawyering IMO. The verbiage (wording) may state
    that the condition is "move", but the intent is clear.

    If a regent has troops on hostile soil - he`s at war. Occupation and
    siege must have the troops "active" i.e. they "move" around in the
    province. Even occupying your own province requires a "Declare War",
    regardless of whether troops move there or not.

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  9. #9
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 10:50 AM 1/5/2003 +1100, Peter Lubke wrote:

    >If a regent has troops on hostile soil - he`s at war. Occupation and siege
    >must have the troops "active" i.e. they "move" around in the province.
    >Even occupying your own province requires a "Declare War",
    >regardless of whether troops move there or not.

    Do you make regents burn their subsequent actions if they`re in a prolonged
    siege then? They don`t have to do that in the rule here that you`re
    finding so lawyerly.

    Gary

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    On Sun, 2003-01-05 at 11:51, Gary wrote:

    At 10:50 AM 1/5/2003 +1100, Peter Lubke wrote:

    >If a regent has troops on hostile soil - he`s at war. Occupation and siege
    >must have the troops "active" i.e. they "move" around in the province.
    >Even occupying your own province requires a "Declare War",
    >regardless of whether troops move there or not.

    Do you make regents burn their subsequent actions if they`re in a prolonged
    siege then? They don`t have to do that in the rule here that you`re
    finding so lawyerly.


    "burn" as in throw away? Nothing is thrown away.

    Not so, they are still besieging are they not? It still has an effect.
    An effect which is combat on enemy soil. Do you really think that it
    should be easier to lay siege than to occupy without one?

    If they do not declare war in subsequent turns - all hostile troops must
    return home. You can`t occupy hostile territory in a non-war turn.

    The "I`m not moving them so I don`t have to declare war" argument is
    terribly thin, and I can`t see any decent DM accepting it. Quite apart
    from being a logically unsound argument. (it`s the old "a dog is an
    animal, therefore all animals are dogs" logic)

    The rulebook states (in Declare War) that "A regent must declare war
    before he can move military units into provinces that don`t belong to
    him". This statement in no way precludes declaring war for other
    purposes or under other obligations - in fact the end of the paragraph
    states clearly that this paragraph is not the full story.: "see armies
    and warfare for more information".

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