Playing a Guilder PC.

[Sorontar]

I have just added a new Manager subclass to the 5e Guilder class that Fizz started. My concern for the Guilder has always been about what exactly do they do if they are a PC? Fighters do combat. Spellcasters do spells. Rogues do sneaky, crafty things. Guilders do what?

The premise for Guild realms is that it is commerce and running businesses. That is fine for the domain level, but does that provide any advantage at the adventure level that isn't already covered by a PC's background knowledge and their NWPs or feats?

The problem is that there is no base focus capability for the guilder to continually improve as it goes up levels. The 5e Guilder subclasses are the Trader, the Delver, the Explorer, and the Manager. The Trader is about making deals. The Delver is about collecting things. The Explorer is about navigation. The Manager is about optimisation. So what should the base guilder be about? How will that impact combat encounters (unfortunately the basis of much a D&D game)?

In 2e, there is no Guilder class. In 3.5e there is no Guilder PC class. Thelandrin suggested a PC class based around Intelligence and Charisma and earning wealth, but it has no abilities that help combat (simple weapons, light armour). ShadowMoon suggested a Prestige class based on Intelligence, Charisma and Wisdom but that was mainly about negotiations, with nothing for combat. The 5e Guilder is based on Intelligence and Wisdom with simple and martial weapons but all armour.

If you were running a Guilder PC, what would you do in combat? Would you fight melee or ranged weapons? Would you want to buff/improve the team? Could you impact the environment, weapons, armour, chances of either side? Would you just give it the same as a rogue (e.g., evasion, backstabbing)? How would this relate to what you consider to be a Guilder?

Sorontar

[Fizz]

I am very interested in this topic, and will reply more thoroughly soon. But i have two quick comments to start:

Guilders do what?...
In 2e, there is no Guilder class.

The 2nd ed Guilder was presented in Havens of the Great Bay. It is a member of the Rogue group (alongside thieves and bards), and specifically listed as being intended a full class alongside fighters, thieves, etc.

As to what they do, in 2nd ed they were the skill-mongers (non-weapon proficiencies in 2nd ed speak). They got an extra slot every level (whereas most other classes got 1 every 3 or 4). So they can be very useful in unconventional ways. I have always thought of adventuring guilders akin to DaVinci, or MacGyver, or even a bit like the gnomish tinkers from Dragonlance.

So my 5e conversion (and my C&C version) tried to keep that focus on skills- making the Guilder the best in such endeavours.


-Fizz


PS: i like your new Manager path.

[Sorontar]

I *knew* there was a 2e version somewhere. I'll have a look later (not sure when... busy week).

Glad you liked the Manager subclass. I have been thinking about what skills would be available in businesses (especially beyond sales and profit) and then trying to think of how they could be helpful in an adventure setting. As such, I am not trying to make an adventurer role and then fit the guilder in it. I am trying to do it the other way round.

I am also trying to work out the following two, working on public relations/advertising, and gambling/shareholding:

• Promoter/Marketer
  Marketer get the attention of the audience, distracting them from other activities, influencing their options and choices. The target must be aware of Marketer to be affected.
  
  Distract: Advantage to the Stealth, Sleight-of-Hand and Deception skill rolls of allies. You can do this as many times as your proficiency bonus per long rest.
  Delay: Distract any enemy within 30 foot such that their next actions are delayed until the end of the round in which they occur. The target has no reaction until after they have performed their action.
  Decoy: The target is confused by who has just impacted it in this round by an action, including combat, spells, speech and other interactions.
  Disrupt: The target’s interaction with the Marketer is interfered with, be it combat attack or spell targetting.
  
• Investor/Gambler
  Investors take calculated risks with other endeavours. They try to influence the chances and direction of success.
  
  hedge their bets - place a limit on the success, but make it a success
  long and shorts - immediate positive effect but also possible negative long term (or the other way around)

Ultimately this then makes me wonder which of these 5e subclass abilities should in fact be available for all 5e Guilders, such that they are the core of what the Guilder is. I am increasingly thinking that during combat/encounters they should be a support class that influences the chances of success or failure. As such, they set up an environment for others to use. This is what got me to designing the Manager subclass (would like a better name, but it fits).

Sorontar

[Sorontar]

For my (and your) reference, here are some previous discussions of the Guilder class:

• What is the Guilder (2007, started by kgauck)
• For the creation of an official Guilder Class (2008, started by Mojczak)
• The 5E Guilder (2017, started by Fizz)

The poll kgauck ran had the following result:

Question: What is the role of the guilder?
Voters: 116

Explorer/Adventurer? 12 votes (10.34%)
Domain Guild Expert? 82 votes (70.69%)
Rogue/Noble Hybrid? 38 votes (32.76%)

Quoting kgauck:
"The explorer adventurer would put its greatest emphasis as a traditional adventuring class, and using the least domain level or leadership abilities. The example of Indiana Jones might be offered.

The domain guild expert would be most directed to running a domain with skills and abilities suited to being a regent.

The noble/rogue hybrid would be a mixture of rogue and noble classes, probably a bit of a swashbuckler. Something of an adventurer, but with the leadership of a noble, and probabaly more of a diplomat and charmer than a rogue.

I think every option is probabaly a skills based PC, as much as the rogue is anyway. No one has suggested that the guilder isn't a skillsed heavy guy. "

[Fizz]

I *knew* there was a 2e version somewhere. I'll have a look later (not sure when... busy week).

Yup, and i use it as the basis for all my conversions. The 2nd ed version is still the best imnsho...

Regarding the Manager and your other Path ideas....

I like the idea that Manager is the one who "runs the business", and it might work well as the Path of choice for those wanting to run a domain. Promoter / Marketer and Investor / Gambler feel too specific to me, but some of the ideas could be subsumed into the Manager.

But your "gambler" notion has promise- how about the "Gamer / Gambler" Path? This would include the hustler or mountebank archetype, making money for himself rather than through conventional businesses. And some of the Promoter ideas might work for the Gambler too.


-Fizz

[Fizz]

The descriptive text of the Guilder class in Havens of the Great Bay says the following:

-------
Guilders specialize in trade, profit, marketability, arbitrage, and monetary concerns. They capitalize on nonweapon proficiencies that help them practice in a commercial venue.
Guilders should be considered adventurers just like thieves and wizards.
-------

They are members of the rogue group, which means they fight like thieves. But they actually fight better that thieves by the virture of being allowed any weapon or armor. The only thief abilities they get is Read Languages, with a rating better than the thief (hence why i included Decipher Script as a standard ability). For their own abilities, guilders get a bonus nonweapon proficiency slot every level.

So, under 2nd Ed, Guilders were the undeniable "skills" class.

3E messed this up, because the thief's special abilities (hide in shadows, climb sheer surfaces, etc) became mundane skills (hide, climb) that anyone could do. The rogue became the default skills-class with very few special abilities. So the only place for the Guilder to go was more skill points.

Under 5e, skills were largely consolidated into a select few generic skills. So my conversion focuses on that: anything that gives more skills or bonuses to skills.

I think in defining the Guilder, it's also useful to mention what it's not.

What the Guilder is: skilled, literate, flexible
What the Guilder is not: sneaky, acrobatic, infliltrating, magical

The two sentences above are why i've always maintained the guilder is its own class, not a prestige or subclass of rogue. How to best implement that vision into 5e is the question.

As for "core" abilities, the original (2e) had essentially the following: (1) bonus skills (2) Read Languages (3) any weapon or armor. I think these are well represented in my conversion. What else could it have, either as new or a replacement, i'm not sure. Though not entirely out of place, i've never been super-keen on "Stroke of Luck", but it doesn't occur until 20th, and couldn't think of an alternative when i wrote it. Heh.


-Fizz

[Sorontar]

I like the basis of what you are starting with Fizz. To quote you:

What the Guilder is: skilled, literate, flexible
What the Guilder is not: sneaky, acrobatic, infliltrating, magical

2e Guilder (HotGB):
(1) bonus skills
(2) better at Read Languages
(3) any weapon or armour.
Require good Intelligence (& Wisdom)

To quote from HotGB (p86-7):
"Guilders manage or work in guilds and perform trade... Their primary interest, however, lies in turning profit consistently. While a warrior might believe that slaying a band of orogs and taking their treasure is a fine way to turn a profit, a guilder may choose to negotiate with the orogs and give them something in return for not disrupting his future business prospects. Such an arrangement would be more profitable in the long run."

"Guilders follow the general rules (hit points, experience level progression, etc.) for thieves. ... Guilders fight as well as thieves, but are allowed a better selection of weapons and armor; guilder characters can use any weapon or armour found in Cerilia, although they tend to avoid heavy armour (especially when seafaring) in all but extreme cases."

So 2e Guilder is said to want to talk his way out of situations, but doesn't have any skill/feature related to that (other than knowing languages) and doesn't require a good Charisma. The only combat advantage they have to a thief is a larger range of weapons and armour.

For 5e 2014, we can compare your Guilder to the 5e 2014 Rogue and the other class of eloquence, the Bard (ignoring the spellcasting aspect).

---

FEATURE   | GUILDER   | ROGUE                 | BARD
Abilities | Int, Wis  | Dex, Int              | Dex, Cha
Tools     | any 2     | thieves tools         | 3 musical 
          |           |                       | instruments
Skills    | any 5     | 4: Acr, Ath, Dec, Ins,| any 3
          |           | Int, Inv, Perc, Perf, | 
          |           | Pers, SoH, Ste        | 
Weapons   | Simple,   | Simple,               | Simple, 
          | martial   | longsword,            | longsword,
          |           | rapier,               | rapier,
          |           | hand crossbow,        | hand crossbow,
          |           | shortsword            | shortsword 

---

L1  | Expertise      | Expertise,      | Bardic Inspiration
    |                | Sneak attack,   |
    |                | Thieves Cant    |
L2  | Skill+         | Cunning action, | Jack of all trades
    |                | Steady aim      |
L3  | Subclass       | Subclass        | Subclass, Expertise
L4  | Ability/feat+  | Ability/feat+   | Ability/feat+, 
    |                |                 | Versatility
L5  | Decipher script| Uncanny Dodge   | Inspiration+
L6  | Skill+         | Expertise+      | Subclass+
L7  | Expertise      | Evasion         | --
L8  | Ability/feat+  | Ability/feat+   | Ability/feat+
L9  | Subclass+      | Subclass+       | Song of rest
L10 | Skill+         | Ability/feat+   | Inspiration+, 
    |                |                 | Expertise+,
    |                |                 | Magical secrets
L11 | Reliable talent| Reliable talent | --
L12 | Ability/feat+  | Ability/feat+   | Ability/feat+
L13 | Subclass+      | Subclass+       | Song of rest+
L14 | Skill+         | Blind sense     | Magical secrets+,
    |                |                 | Subclass+
L15 | Expertise+     | Slippery mind   | Inspiration+
L16 | Ability/feat+  | Ability/feat+   | Ability/feat+
L17 | Subclass+      | Subclass+       | Song of rest+
L18 | Skill+         | Elusive         | Magical secrets+
L19 | Ability/feat+  | Ability/feat+   | Ability/feat+
L20 | Stroke of luck | Stroke of luck  | Superior Inspiration 

+: a new proficiency or choice or upgrade using this feature

Obviously your Guilder was based around the Rogue's progression. The Rogue's sneak attack improves every 2 levels. Both Bard and Rogue proficiencies improve every 4 levels. The Bard's cantrips and spells improve irregularly. I'll post my ideas about possible changes to the Guilder later in another post.

If anyone-else has ideas, please comment. Fizz's Guilder is 5e 2014 and that is the only 5e version I am familiar with so that is what I am looking at.

Sorontar

[Sorontar]

So let's take it that the strengths of a 5e 2014 Guilder are its knowledge skillset, its communication and its access to resources. In previous designs this has been reflected in what it is proficient in, its language and writing features, and its access to weapons and armour. For the current 5e Guilder class, this breaks down as follows (ignoring possible subclass or race or background benefits):

• Proficiency:
  - starts with proficiency at 5 skills
  - starts with proficiency at 2 tools
  - can choose to be proficient at any skills (18 to chose from)
  - gains proficiency in 5 more skills, tools or languages over time (so potentially 10 skills in total)
  - gains Expertise in 3 skills over time
  - gains Reliable Talent at Lvl 11 on any ability check using a proficiency bonus
  - gains Stroke of Luck at Lvl 20 on one ability check per long rest
• Communication:
  - knows the standard number of languages (2 languages for humans)
  - can gain proficiency in 5 more languages (instead of skills or tools)
  - gains Decipher Script at Lvl5
• Resources:
  - can use any simple or martial weapons, and any armour

Let's talk about each of these.

Proficiency
I think this is overkill. The basic Rogue is proficient at 4 skills at most in a restricted set of skills, plus Expertise at 2. The basic Bard is proficient at 3 skills, plus Expertise at 2 plus Jack of All Trades. 10 possible skills for a Guilder is too much. I suggest that the number be lowered. How about:

• Start with 4 skills and 2 tools, unrestricted choice
• Allow 4 new skills/tools/languages, still unrestricted choice
• Allow 2-3 Expertises
• Add Jack of all Trades at a low level
• Omit Reliable Talent if there are 3 Expertises
• Change Stroke of Luck to something more Guilder-skill based

I like the idea of a Guilder being like Samildanach - skilled at lots of things - but it doesn't have to be everything. This is especially true if you add further proficiencies due to race and background and then add proficiencies thanks to a chosen subclass. I am fine with the Guilder still having as many Expertise as a Rogue or Bard and having more proficiencies at tools than them, but having more than twice as many skills as well is too much IMHO. This is not Sneak Attack, such that it has to keep increasing every couple of levels. I much prefer to have a slower increase (like abilities do) and be transformed in its capabilities by other features, like Expertise. Having something like the Bardic Versatility feature may also help.

Communication
The fluff mainly portrays the Guilder as good negotiator. Unfortunately this is rarely how the class is designed. While I like the fact that they may have good language skills (maybe with a bonus extra language proficiency), there is nothing in the base 5e Guilder that reflects their ability to speak the gab and drive a hard bargain/get a good deal. Maybe they need to start with a given proficiency in Persuasion. Another option is to include class features from the Rogue Inquisitive or Mastermind subclasses, but adapt them for Guilder dealmaking.

I am not sure how the ability to interpret anything written in any language (Decipher Script) relates to a Guilder. I think we could think up a better class feature than that which is more Guilder-specific.

Resources
Part of the big problems with a Guilder is that they have nothing special for combat, and a large part of D&D is always the fighting. They don't have to be good at fighting, but they need to have something special to help the team. So far the only benefit they have been given is that they can have access to use any basic Simple or Martial Weapon. I like the concept of a Guilder being able to get what they want and learn how to use it. This is in the 2e Guilder. I think it should be extended to allow a Guilder to have access and use of one exotic weapon (of the DM's approval of course). Sure, no-one else may be using shurikens or an ikakalaka, but of all the classes I can understand a Guilder getting access to one.

The question is whether any other base class features should make more of the Guilders' access to the trading market.

As for other combat benefits, I'll leave that for another post.

Sorontar

[Fizz]

Proficiency
I think this is overkill. The basic Rogue is proficient at 4 skills at most in a restricted set of skills, plus Expertise at 2. The basic Bard is proficient at 3 skills, plus Expertise at 2 plus Jack of All Trades. 10 possible skills for a Guilder is too much. I suggest that the number be lowered. How about:

Perhaps. I recall doing a quick back-of-hand comparison of nonweapon proficiencies to skill slots and wanted to be sure the Guilder was the best at it. But nonweapon proficiencies and skills work very differently, so my estimate as it pertains to playability could be off.

• Start with 4 skills and 2 tools, unrestricted choice
• Allow 4 new skills/tools/languages, still unrestricted choice
• Allow 2-3 Expertises
• Add Jack of all Trades at a low level
• Omit Reliable Talent if there are 3 Expertises
• Change Stroke of Luck to something more Guilder-skill based

You're suggesting going from a total of 10 skills to 8, yes? Yeah, that's reasonable, especially if we counter with other more unique ideas.

And as i said before, i've not been a fan of Stroke of Luck, so i'm happy if we found something more "guilder-y".

One idea that i've used for my guilder conversion for Castles & Cruades is a Guild Specialty. It grants a +1 bonus on any skill related to the specialty. So for example, if the specialty is arms & armor, the guilder would get a +1 bonus when appraising, evaluating or even crafting such items. For the C&C version, the bonus increases at higher levels. Different specialties might include arts, foodstuffs, gems, etc.

Communication
The fluff mainly portrays the Guilder as good negotiator. Unfortunately this is rarely how the class is designed. While I like the fact that they may have good language skills (maybe with a bonus extra language proficiency), there is nothing in the base 5e Guilder that reflects their ability to speak the gab and drive a hard bargain/get a good deal. Maybe they need to start with a given proficiency in Persuasion. Another option is to include class features from the Rogue Inquisitive or Mastermind subclasses, but adapt them for Guilder dealmaking.

One could read the fluff text not as skilled in negotiation, but as an illustration that they care about maintaining profits long-term. If slaying the orogs every day kept the profits flowing, the guilder would be fine with that too. Negotiation is clearly an option, but it doesn't have to be their go-to manuever. Are they inherently any better at it than anyone else? (Would be a good ability for a sublcass though.)

The fluff example actually reminds me a bit of an example from the 2nd ed Bard class; the Influence Reactions ability, where by telling a joke the bard convinces his captor goblins to not cook him and keep him for entertainment (or somesuch).

Another example is from the Trader class from 2nd Ed Dark Sun, the Dune Trader expansion. They had a Fast Talk ability, which essentially let them convince the target of something, the bigger the con the more difficult the check.

I am not sure how the ability to interpret anything written in any language (Decipher Script) relates to a Guilder. I think we could think up a better class feature than that which is more Guilder-specific.

Yeah, i really wanted to get in the connection to the original Read Languages skill, but 5e doesn't seem to have an equivalent. Hence the ability as i wrote it. Maybe they should just get a new language every few levels? Not sure.

Resources
Part of the big problems with a Guilder is that they have nothing special for combat, and a large part of D&D is always the fighting. They don't have to be good at fighting, but they need to have something special to help the team.

That was one of the issues with 3e onwards i have always had- that all classes had be "equal" in combat. That said, this is a philosophical design issue, and if we're designing for 5e i see your point.

So far the only benefit they have been given is that they can have access to use any basic Simple or Martial Weapon. I like the concept of a Guilder being able to get what they want and learn how to use it. This is in the 2e Guilder. I think it should be extended to allow a Guilder to have access and use of one exotic weapon (of the DM's approval of course). Sure, no-one else may be using shurikens or an ikakalaka, but of all the classes I can understand a Guilder getting access to one.

An exotic weapon might be a good idea. Or what about combat style options? Some 5e conversions include Black Strike as a style (i think), which would be a natural option for a guilder (as most are from Brechtur). (I can't recall all the standard combat styles currently...)

The question is whether any other base class features should make more of the Guilders' access to the trading market.

Some of them are covered by the various subclasses. So yes, the question is whether there is something that should be core to all guilders. Not sure yet.


-Fizz

[Sorontar]

You're suggesting going from a total of 10 skills to 8, yes? Yeah, that's reasonable, especially if we counter with other more unique ideas.

Yes, that is my idea. Start with your existing structure, and change how often the skills get added. Most base classes are lucky to get 2 skills. My thought is that the Expertise and other skill-based features will be intermittent between them, based on other classes and subclass, like the Rogue and its Mastermind and Inquisitive subclasses, and Bard. This would include looking at when Magical Secrets get added to Bards and adding something like Jack of All Trades for non-proficient skills.

One idea that i've used for my guilder conversion for Castles & Cruades is a Guild Specialty. It grants a +1 bonus on any skill related to the specialty. So for example, if the specialty is arms & armor, the guilder would get a +1 bonus when appraising, evaluating or even crafting such items. For the C&C version, the bonus increases at higher levels. Different specialities might include arts, foodstuffs, gems, etc.

Sound good. It could probably be based on the artisan's tools they are proficient in or the PC's background (which probably gives the proficiency in the tools anyway). An optional expansion could be to include services, like construction, messaging/postal or medical services. Not sure how you would restrict those but it might have to be DM's choice.

One could read the fluff text not as skilled in negotiation, but as an illustration that they care about maintaining profits long-term. If slaying the orogs every day kept the profits flowing, the guilder would be fine with that too. Negotiation is clearly an option, but it doesn't have to be their go-to manuever. Are they inherently any better at it than anyone else? (Would be a good ability for a sublcass though.)

I agree that providing more options might need to be a subclass thing, but perhaps a 5e Guilder should be forced to have at least one of the core Charisma skills (Deception, Intimidation, Performance, Persuasion) at Level 1. How they use it will be up to the player.

Another example is from the Trader class from 2nd Ed Dark Sun, the Dune Trader expansion. They had a Fast Talk ability, which essentially let them convince the target of something, the bigger the con the more difficult the check.

Like making the base Guilder have extra skills, the language capabilities need to be reflected in some of the features for the base Guilder. Some can be achieved through the skills (or languages being chosen instead of skills). Some might be features like one to allow interpreting complex documents like instructions, legal or bureaucratic docs, manuals and blueprints. Others might need to be left for subclasses. We just need to make sure there is something that is 1) special for Guilders 2) not too much that the class is overwhelmed with capabilities.

That was one of the issues with 3e onwards i have always had- that all classes had be "equal" in combat. That said, this is a philosophical design issue, and if we're designing for 5e i see your point.

An exotic weapon might be a good idea. Or what about combat style options? Some 5e conversions include Black Strike as a style (i think), which would be a natural option for a guilder (as most are from Brechtur). (I can't recall all the standard combat styles currently...)

This is the big unknown. I have been thinking about a number of possibilities that might be helpful in combat. I might expand on these in other posts.

• Recognising the strategic "value" of things, like whether they are not magical, how much they cost, recognising frauds, which opponent is the most capable in some something (like a Mastermind's Insightful Manipulator or an Inquisitive's eye for Weakness). This could be expanded to recognising traps and flaws and lies.
• using everyday/household items in combat, often for *defensive* effects, e.g, canes, hats, cloaks, tankards, belts. This could include a fighting style like Black Strike and other non-item-specific defensive features that allow a Guilder to do things like disarm, entangle, or disable a target.
• using products in combat, e.g. food for buffs and other affects but this is basically like being an alchemist (Artificer), tools like cooking pans and rolling pins, mining tools,
• the power of names - see http://www.birthright.net/forums/sho...4405#post94405

I like the idea of the base Guilder being good at defense and tactics in battle. That is something that each subclass can then expand in different directions, using skills and new features, etc. I would want to have something in the base class though that can be built up every few levels, like the sneak attack, spellcasting levels, combat attacks, etc for other classes. It wouldn't make them good at attacking others, but it might help them survive and make the combat easier for others.

Sorontar