What is the Guilder?

[kgauck]

Here we can collect the Polling on what people see the guilder role as being.

The explorer adventurer would put its greatest emphasis as a traditional adventuring class, and using the least domain level or leadership abilities. The example of Indiana Jones might be offered.

The domain guild expert would be most directed to running a domain with skills and abilities suited to being a regent.

The noble/rogue hybrid would be a mixture of rogue and noble classes, probably a bit of a swashbuckler. Something of an adventurer, but with the leadership of a noble, and probabaly more of a diplomat and charmer than a rogue.

I think every option is probabaly a skills based PC, as much as the rogue is anyway. No one has suggested that the guilder isn't a skillsed heavy guy.

[Fizz]

Here we can collect the Polling on what people see the guilder role as being.

Since i'm the cause of all this trouble, i'll start.

In 3E and in the BRCS, there has been an effort to expand the availability of core classes beyond their regional boundaries. In 2nd Ed, only Anuireans and Khinasi could be paladins. But in 3E the effort has been made to remove boundaries such as these.

Most people here are relegating the guilder to a regional merchant. Even in 2nd Ed that was not a fair description. With the same BRCS spirit of removing old boundaries, i think the guilder can be the skills-based class of choice. This doesn't mean that most guilders aren't profit-seeking Brechts, but there is room for many other motives and cultures.

He can be a sailor who ferries people to new lands. Or he can be a treasure hunter using his knowledge of the occult to bypass ancient traps. Or he can be an herbalist who seeks out new plants and formulae (either to sell or prevent a plague). Or he might even be a merchant who wants to expand his trading empire.

The point is, he is heavily reliant on skills- more reliant than any other class. Other classes may remain better at some skills (rogues are better sneaks, bards are better diplomats, rangers better survivalists). But the guilder makes use of a variety of different types of skills better than others.

Does that help any?


-Fizz

[Fizz]

The options in the poll are not complete. You need a `skills-based PC class' or similar in there. I don't think any of the other options reflect what i've been envisioning.

-Fizz

[Sorontar]

My idea of a Guilder is a negotiator who has industry and administration knowledge (key ability is Charisma). But since the options in this survey have just been listed, not defined, I'm not sure whether that is a rogue/noble or domain-based guild thing. Or something else.

Could someone add a definition of each of the options, rather than forcing me to read the length thread again that has been discussing the Guilder.

Sorontar

[hazard]

I see guilder as versatile ruler with lots of skills. I liked very much version with 3 subclass. Administrator (Lord type) , Guilder ( Rogue type) and Sage ( Mage type) but. I know is long lost concept...

[RaspK_FOG]

According to Havens, the guilder is a resourceful deal-striker.

[Mojczak]

I think that if you simply take the guilder as a "guild" oriented character you are remarkbly limiting the potential of this class. First, let's take a look at what a guild is... BASICALLY ANYTHING tide to commerce. And what can someone make the comemerce of... basically anything. From selling souvenirs to selling orcish-slave females. However, in this world of opportunity the guilder is an adventurous one... someone bold enough to go and fare for success and glory whenever it calls to him. He is bold, and profit-oriented AND adventurous. In my mind, his evident experience comes from the said boldness translated into opportunity-grabbing and chance. So, he is as much an adventurer, considering the orientation of trade in that period of the history... as a "guild" oriented character who knows how to count on his boldness, luck and natural talent to seize the right opportunities.

And I just said in many words what others have said in one short sentence.

[irdeggman]

I agree with most so far that these are not real good choices for what is trying to be accomplished.

A rogue/noble hybrid is not a "role" for one thing - that is a "mechanic".


Just thinking while typing - I think choices more along the following are more accurate for the "first step" in defining a new class:

What role/niche should the guilder fill?

1. Explorer/adventurer
2. Master of all things having to do with economics
3. Other, please specify

Things like skill master are more of a "mechanic" than a role, IMO.

I though about putting in domain level economics, but thought about that again that was actually a subset of ""all things having to do with economics"

I also thought about putting in "combination of the above" but that would lead to an "uber-class" that can do "everything" and has no specific role. In which case using the "generic" classes of Unearthed Arcana would be best to capture what someone is going for. But mixing "generic" and "specific" classes is a very bad thing to do. That is having a skill based class (expert from UA) and a paladin class in the same game makes no sense since the paladin is now "limited" when compared to the "generic class".

This determing of the role does not specify whether or not the class is best determined by a Prestige Class or a core class though, only the "role" or "niche" it should fill.

I'm having trouble coming up with more than 2 choices for the base list though.

I would recommend not using this poll itself, but the thread to come up with the list of choices for a moore clearly defined poll.

Please don't take any of this as condescending or a put down. I'm only trying to put in what I've learned by the "numerous" polls I'v run in the past.

[kgauck]

If the noble has a role, and the rogue has a role, how is it that a noble/rogue hybrid has to lack any role, and be purely mechanical?

Take as an example the scout. Clearly a rogue/ranger hybrid, the scout has a clear role and is not just a mechanical combination of ranger and rogue parts. Skirmish is inspired by sneak attack, but is an adaptation to fill the role imagined for a scout.

[RaspK_FOG]

The thing is, while the concept you have in mind and some of us can realise is not "noble/rogue hybrid," that's what mechanics boil down to. Imagine a priestly order of warrior monks - there you have it, a monk/paladin prestige class hybrid! See what Irdeggman says?