Taelinri -- The Game Mechanics

[Rowan]

I'm not familiar with the Player's Secrets. As I remember, though, in the recently-hashed-out hierarchy of canon materials, PS's fall pretty low. If we are going to abide by any standard of canon and use the canon hierarchy, we should be explicit about when we wish to depart from canon material with major new fan-based contradictions/revisions, or when we are trying to explain the canon further.

I understood most of our discussions to be trying to further expand upon the original existing material in a somewhat rigorous, academic fashion. That approach precludes radical departure from the original game setting without being explicit about the fan-based nature of the departure.

As for the Erebannien, High Mage Aelies and ilk haven't been around as long as the forest. It was protected by Imperial decree under one of the last Roeles, if I remember correctly.

[ryancaveney]

On absolute grounds, though, unless humans truly are beings without worth or right to live, Rhoubhe's form of slaughter and genocide is evil. Why make apologies for it? Surely he and some elves will try to justify it, as people try to justify all evil, but that doesn't make it good instead of evil.

As far as the elves are concerned, the humans ARE truly beings without worth or right to live, so by your own syllogism the slaughter is not evil. I think it's very simple: the elves are in favor of whatever increases the source potential of provinces. Therefore, they are against plains and in favor of forests, so they are against human settlement. I also am quite sure that my view is better supported by canon than yours, as Kenneth, Gary and Michael have pointed out.

I think Cerilian elves were made dark and disturbing from the start. Genocidal and malevolent from the get go. These are not the good guys in any world where the humans are the race a reader identifies with. If humans are regarded as distopian, dirty, and corrupt, then the elves can be admirable and heroic. Not both at the same time. If a wolf (men) is killing the cattle (mebhaighl), shouldn't the rancher (elves) kill the wolf to save the cattle?

Exactly so! The fact that so many Cerilian elves hate and hunt humans is precisely what I like most about the setting. I would like it even better if the Gheallie Sidhe were universal, but it's already pretty strong in standard canon. In Cerilia, as opposed to every other D&D game world ever created, I would never even consider trying to run elves and non-elves in the same adventuring party, unless the non-elves were NPC slaves of the elves. That violent darkness is the most refreshing aspect of the Sidhelien. I sympathize strongly with their viewpoint; my favorite campaign to envision is the Sidhelien total eradication of all humans on the continent, in part because it is so very different from the hippie peacenik conventions of non-Cerilian D&D elves.

[Sorontar]

Okay, the problem here seems to be people trying to work out what is the underlying elven opinion about humans (and other races). I ask people to look at the human races. Brecht have a different culture to Rjurik to Basaji etc. Why can't elves do likewise?

What I am trying to get to is: In the "canon" material, does it clearly identify whether *all* elven cultures hunt and hate humans, or just some elven cultures like that of the Manslayer?

Sorontar

[ryancaveney]

What I am trying to get to is: In the "canon" material, does it clearly identify whether *all* elven cultures hunt and hate humans, or just some elven cultures like that of the Manslayer?

Most elven cultures hunt and hate humans. Sielwode, for example, is very anti-human. Tuarhievel is ruled by a pro-human (or one who pretends to be), but there is a strong anti-human element among the people and the cause fo a major split between the nobles.

[kgauck]

I think that every Elf realm we have discusses the problem of the man-haters and the man-tolerators. The presence of both factions in basically all realms (perhaps no tolerators in Rhuobhe and no, or few, haters in Rheulgard (? the mixed realm)) suggests how universal this problem is.

[Rowan]

As far as the elves are concerned, the humans ARE truly beings without worth or right to live, so by your own syllogism the slaughter is not evil.

You might have missed that I'm referring to an absolute morality. I'm not some silly relativist in real life nor in my fantasy games, for fantasy is traditionally a genre acknowledging the absolute existence of Truth, Good, and Evil, and I'll not betray that which is the very heritage and provence of fantasy as the Myth, Legend, and moral story of our day. Fantasy is so successful as a genre because it appeals to and does not shy away from our instinctive roots in and knowledge of Truth, Good, and Evil.


As for how extensive human hatred is in the canon, it seems pretty clear to me from the core sources that while there is a streak of Rhuobhe sympathizers in every elven culture, most elves have shunned him. Instead, Tuarhievel allows human guilders and makes friends with humans--not just the current Prince Fhileraene, but his father as well, and both reigns had more than a majority of support it would seem. Further, the Sielwode is not as anti-human as here suggested. Isaelie may have fits of rage, but it is said that she holds no ill will towards humans, and her lieutenant is a bit friendlier than that. Then we've got elves serving in Tuornen and living among humans in the Erebannien. No, I think elves are in the process of getting over humans, just as people and cultures who lose wars and loved ones gradually deal with their grief and anger and move on--or turn it to destruction (like the relatively fewer elves who join with Rhuobhe).

[geeman]

At 04:12 PM 2/6/2008, Sorontar wrote:

>What I am trying to get to is: In the "canon" material, does it
>clearly identify whether *all* elven cultures hunt and hate humans,
>or just some elven cultures like that of the Manslayer?

Well, you`re right there. I quickly realized when writing up the
chapter for Secrets of the Sidhe that the GS have to be treated on a
case by case basis for each elven domain. The attitudes towards the
GS vary quite a bit and there are few generalities to be made about
them. In fact, I`d argue that they vary so much that there isn`t
really A geallie Sidhe at all. It`s a more of an idea, maybe what we
might want to characterize as a movement, than an organization.

Gary

[ConjurerDragon]

> Sorontar wrote:
> Okay, the problem here seems to be people trying to work out what is the underlying elven opinion about humans (and other races). I ask people to look at the human races. Brecht have a different culture to Rjurik to Basaji etc. Why can`t elves do likewise?
> What I am trying to get to is: In the "canon" material, does it clearly identify whether *all* elven cultures hunt and hate humans, or just some elven cultures like that of the Manslayer?
> Sorontar


Unlike the human races the sidhelien actually once were a united culture
and realm under the elven court. So the differences between the
sidhelien culture of the sidhlelien realms should be minimal - after all
it?s only 1 generation ago that all of Aebrynnis were one elven realm ;-)

[ConjurerDragon]

> Rowan wrote:
> You really want to make goblins out to be better than humans? Sure sounds like it goes against BR orthodoxy and D&D in general.

BR orthodoxy or at least the atlas in 2E was written from an anuirean viewpoint. No wonder that a member of a race does not see it himself as the evil invader commiting genocide on the sidhelien.

And goblins are better than normal D&D goblins, because in BR they have at least 3 *relatively* stable and rather large realms and are not
simply wandering monsters. They have diplomatic contacts and trade with their neighbours so a large improvement in being civilized compared to the standard D&D goblin.

> Another dark vision of the world likely arising from player or GM self-loathing of humans that I personally would have no interest in playing in...
>

Player or GM self-loathing? Mmmh, do you realize how that sounds? To use your style of arguing to describe your game then - "Another
pretty coloured version of the world likely arising from player or GM ego and their unwillingness to overcome in a roleplayinggame what they
are in real life. Even unable to play a game where *just in the game* humans are not the center of the universe, the shining knights and the bearers of light and pretty flowers."

> ...
> Where did you get that the Erebannien was part of the Aelvinnwode, or that the forest was so extensive? Sure it has been cut back, but when the humans came to Cerilia, the elves willingly gave them the plains, presumably a large portion of Anuire.
>

I can?t cite you all the passages of text scattered across the published BR material, but just one source I have at hand. The rhuobhe Manslayer cardboard: "... When Rhuobhe Manslayer (pronounced Rove) was a young elf, whiling his time away in the southern Aelvinnwode ***on the banks of the River Maesil (in the land now known as Ghoere)***, the human tribes began migrating to Cerilia...."

So the Aelvinnwode stretched across from where it ends now over the whole of the Duchy of Alamie (including tuornen) just to the river Maesil.

> I`m not arguing against elves wanting to retake their lands. I`m arguing that by and large, they`re not into genocide. Though they may have fought with the Rjurik, they`d be more favorably inclined to them than the other human tribes, and thus would be even less likely to desire to wipe them out.

Ah - you?re right. The elves are certainly NOT into genonide. The sidhelien are noble spirits of the forests. Protectors of nature. The
original inhabitants of all the lands where now humans live in Aebrynnis. They certainly would nobly offer any human (despite the human crimes and genocidal tendencys) a choice: Leave *our* land and go back to Aduria, change and live in peace with nature - or die.

But see - the problem is the humans in BR *are* into genocide. The imperial Anuireans exterminated the former population of Talinie to the
last elf (those stonebuilding elves) and destroyed any elven presence between where they landed at the shore and what is currently left of the sidhelien realms. And if those maniacal warmongers would not bicker over the imperial throne and be united they certainly would kill off the remaining non-human realms.

[Rowan]

Let me first address this mistaken idea that all canon material is from a human perspective. It's not. Only the Atlas is, and that's pretty impartial when you read it, having been supposedly written by Caliedhe Dosiere, and matching up well with the DM-specific material in Ruins of Empire and the main book.

The other core books are clearly written from a DM-information perspective. They are intended to be the standard for the setting. If you want to stray from it, that's fine, but don't pretend that something inconsistent with RoE and the rule book is supposed to be the standard position for Birthright!

It's been 2 generations since Deismaar (from the Atlas, and the fact that Rhuobhe is Fhileraene's great-grandfather; he was Ibelcoris's grandfather). While there are certainly some elves still alive from before humans came, Rhuobhe seems to have few peers still alive from his generation--I can think of none mentioned in the texts. Most elves alive were most likely born after Deismaar.

I can agree with you about the choices elves may like to give humans. I think elves are realists, as well, and therefore are more likely to settle with peace where they have not the strength to push humans back. Because of that, most elves have likely accepted what their ancestors did--humans can have the plains. They may still want all the forests back, and know that elves have a fair chance of doing that and holding the forests.

If you agree that elves are not into genocide, then will you agree that most elves do not see it as right or justified to go around slaughtering innocents, particularly children? That's a mark of genocide. They'd prefer to do everything but (which would include destroying villages, burning homes and fields).

Oh, and I don't think humans are interested in genocide in general either. They merely want to increase their land. Elf-hating extremists are even less common among humans as human-hating extremists are among elves.

I'll address the rest later.