Taelinri -- The Game Mechanics

[ryancaveney]

If men, women, and children are innocent and have a right to live, then slaughtering them mercilessly and desiring their slaughter and being glad of it is certainly evil both intrinsically and intentionally.

Elves are a different species from humans. To the elves, the humans are not innocent -- many here have theorized that human agriculture actually directly harms the elves -- and have no right to live. To many of the elves, eradicating humans from the planet is no different from human exterminators killing the termites eating their houses, and there is no more wrong with desiring and being glad of the slaughter than there is in the exterminator whistling while he works. This isn't humans killing each other; at worst, it's humans killing whales. I think that's the real debate among the elves: are the humans an important part of the environment, or a pest trying to destroy your home? I do not think Rhoubhe is evil -- nor do I think the Gheallie Sidhe is evil -- and I do not think he is nearly as shunned by other elves as the human version of the tales would have us believe. I don't think he kills or imprisons other elves, which is the only thing the other elves would consider a crime; humans just tell each other those stories because he's already considered evil in their minds and they find it comforting to (falsely!) imagine that his viewpoint is rare among the Sidhelien. Anything he does to humans it at worst an unpleasant hobby, like pulling wings off flies; many elves, however, are very glad he does what they agree should be done but don't want to spend their time doing themselves.

The Sidhe would at least see humans on a level with animals, the senseless slaughter of which they surely find atrocious. Further I think the elves do have a sense of justice, not wishing death upon those not worthy of it until they do something to warrant it.

It's not senseless, because the humans have done plenty to warrant it. I can't imagine any elf who's been paying any attention at all to the last two thousand years not having realized by now that the humans must either be destroyed (or turned into manageable half-elves) or they will eventually destroy the elves. I think the Sidhe do intervene in nature, and do take sides in struggles in the natural world: humans are a species which cause immense harm to all other living creatures for no apparent reason other than malice or sheer carelessness, so the elves will eradicate the humans for the sake of the species they prefer, just as they would have acted to stop Dutch Elm disease or other organisms which kill trees.

[Rowan]

You can of course take that approach in your campaign and advocate it, but Ryan, it's far from canon and requires much revision.

Canon repeatedly indicates an early elven recognition of and friendship with the humans. They obviously see them as another sentient species with more worth than the goblins, and certainly see them as much more than termites or mere pests with no souls or sentience.

Further, canon clearly states that Rhuobhe kills other elves (witnessed events) and rules them with an iron fist--a very unelven thing stemming more from the Azrai blood you seem to be discounting when you make him out to be just a normal elf. Canon also has most elves being fairly goodly folk as far as their respect for life. I dislike the tendency to stray from that because it gets even farther from the Tolkien roots of Cerilian elves, and also feeds into this recent tendency (in the past decade or so) to make D&D into a more villainous game, following the pattern of White Wolf's World of Darkness with a growing fascination with evil and a major reduction in the moral uprightness of heroes that used to be the basis of D&D.

On absolute grounds, though, unless humans truly are beings without worth or right to live, Rhoubhe's form of slaughter and genocide is evil. Why make apologies for it? Surely he and some elves will try to justify it, as people try to justify all evil, but that doesn't make it good instead of evil.

[kgauck]

Let's imagine, for the sake of argument, that humans are like wolves, and elves are the people.

Canon repeatedly indicates an early elven recognition of and friendship with the humans.

When people in Cerilia first encountered wolves they saw their nobility and skill and embraced the pack. Then they got bit.

They obviously see them as another sentient species with more worth than the goblins, and certainly see them as much more than termites or mere pests with no souls or sentience.

Goblins are pretty well regarded by the setting, so for the wolves to be worth no more than goblins is still pretty good, as far as that goes. I think neither a soul (which elves do not possess) and sentience (are they Stoics?) are not the test for elves. Their impact on the natural world, and perhaps even on the flow of mebhaighl is what matters. If goblins, wolves, rabbits, and other creatures over hunt, destroy ecosystems, render the land barren and reduce the supply of mebhaighl, then they are like locusts who destroy crops, rabbits who eat McGregor's garden, the wolf in the hen-house, the mice in the grain stores, and so on.

Further, canon clearly states that Rhuobhe kills other elves (witnessed events) and rules them with an iron fist

As far as how governance is described, there are so many descriptions of rulers which are cartoonish, I can't take any of them seriously. In a game about rulers and rulership, I think the description of these things should be a lot better. Its like making a game about pirates in which you seriously wonder if the authors have ever seen water, let alone been sailing.

a very unelven thing stemming more from the Azrai blood you seem to be discounting when you make him out to be just a normal elf.

I think Rhuobhe is more like a cult leader, with all the fervent devotion to the ideology that that implies. I think his followers are cult members, absolutely dedicated to the master. He doesn't rule them so much as he makes crazy pronouncements and his members step on one another to get their first. Rhoubhe should be charming, persuasive, charismatic in the normal sense, an obvious visionary, and a little disturbing. Perhaps, after a while, a lot disturbing. But his people regard him as the alpha and omega of what matters.

Canon also has most elves being fairly goodly folk as far as their respect for life.
I dislike the tendency to stray from that because it gets even farther from the Tolkien roots of Cerilian elves

I don't think Cerilian elves are Toklienesque, I think they are Celtic (and Arthurian, which is, as far as elves go more a matter of emphasis than difference). I think the description of the elves is part Celtic elf, part Celtic resistance to Saxon invaders, part Amerindian resistance to Europeans. This is what I get from reading the source materials.

[This] also feeds into this recent tendency (in the past decade or so) to make D&D into a more villainous game, following the pattern of White Wolf's World of Darkness with a growing fascination with evil and a major reduction in the moral uprightness of heroes that used to be the basis of D&D.

I think Cerilian elves were made dark and disturbing from the start. Genocidal and malevolent from the get go. These are not the good guys in any world where the humans are the race a reader identifies with. If humans are regarded as distopian, dirty, and corrupt, then the elves can be admirable and heroic. Not both at the same time.

On absolute grounds, though, unless humans truly are beings without worth or right to live, Rhoubhe's form of slaughter and genocide is evil. Why make apologies for it? Surely he and some elves will try to justify it, as people try to justify all evil, but that doesn't make it good instead of evil.

I think as far as elves are concerned, humans truly are beings without worth or right to live. The question up for debate among the elves is, is it more effective to co-opt some and kill the rest, or kill them all.

If a wolf (men) is killing the cattle (mebhaighl), shouldn't the rancher (elves) kill the wolf to save the cattle?

[Rowan]

And yet, despite the odd, incongruous persistence of forest in Thurazor, the goblins seem to be depicted as much more destructive than humans. Humans have preserved the Erebannien and much of the Aelvinnwode. I just don't see them as as vile as you are making out. Especially considering that Tuarhievel is listed as a Good realm and seems to have relatively little problem with humans and indeed friendship with them, and the more foreboding Sielwode is still Neutral and Isaelie is said to not bear them ill will.

Not much that I can remember reading seems to even make elves seem to care much about stewarding mebhaigl, natural resources, or even the forests, unless you create any of those roles for them in your own campaign apart from and in addition to the canon books. Rather, the elves seem to care less about these things than the Rjurik and druids do. Surely by your standards they'd actually like the Rjurik, then?

[kgauck]

Rather, the elves seem to care less about these things than the Rjurik and druids do. Surely by your standards they'd actually like the Rjurik, then?

The Rjurik are portrayed as anti-Rjurik, in the final analysis. They almost seem gripped by self-loathing.

[ConjurerDragon]

Rowan schrieb:
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> Rowan wrote:
> And yet, despite the odd, incongruous persistence of forest in Thurazor, the goblins seem to be depicted as much more destructive than humans.
Depicted - by anuireans? If I remember that right the 2E Atlas is
written from the subjective point of view of an Anuirean Chamberlain. So
it is limited in it?s objectiveness, self-centered view and limited by
what the character writing the atlas knows.

> Humans have preserved the Erebannien and much of the Aelvinnwode.
That is very subjecive - the Erebannien and the Aelvinnwode were once
one. Alamie was completely forested and the forests stretched to the
mouth of the Maesil. So yes, they did preserve some forest (after
cutting down more than half in the empire) but for how long? If the
human population grows the forests will grow thinner and thinner.

> I just don`t see them as as vile as you are making out. Especially considering that Tuarhievel is listed as a Good realm and seems to have relatively little problem with humans and indeed friendship with them, and the more foreboding Sielwode is still Neutral and Isaelie is said to not bear them ill will.
>
A PC can be good while he slaughters monsters in the hundreds. A
sidhelien realm can be good if all it ever would do is to take back
those lands that they held in the lifetime of the living sidhelien.
Which would be all of Anuire.

> Not much that I can remember reading seems to even make elves seem to care much about stewarding mebhaigl, natural resources, or even the forests, unless you create any of those roles for them in your own campaign apart from and in addition to the canon books. Rather, the elves seem to care less about these things than the Rjurik and druids do. Surely by your standards they`d actually like the Rjurik, then?
>
The Rjuven were the last of the human tribes to wage war against the
sidhelien because they follow a dogma that from all human tribes is
closest to the sidhelien view - and yet they still had their war.

[Rowan]

You really want to make goblins out to be better than humans? Sure sounds like it goes against BR orthodoxy and D&D in general. Another dark vision of the world likely arising from player or GM self-loathing of humans that I personally would have no interest in playing in...

What's with all of this revisionism, people? Sure, do it in your own campaigns, but don't claim the canon supports it.

Where did you get that the Erebannien was part of the Aelvinnwode, or that the forest was so extensive? Sure it has been cut back, but when the humans came to Cerilia, the elves willingly gave them the plains, presumably a large portion of Anuire.

I'm not arguing against elves wanting to retake their lands. I'm arguing that by and large, they're not into genocide. Though they may have fought with the Rjurik, they'd be more favorably inclined to them than the other human tribes, and thus would be even less likely to desire to wipe them out.

[geeman]

At 12:22 PM 2/6/2008, Rowan wrote:

>You really want to make goblins out to be better than humans? Sure
>sounds like it goes against BR orthodoxy and D&D in
>general. Another dark vision of the world likely arising from
>player or GM self-loathing of humans that I personally would have no
>interest in playing in...
>
>What`s with all of this revisionism, people? Sure, do it in your
>own campaigns, but don`t claim the canon supports it.

We can`t claim canon supports it even if it`s canon.... Hmm. Now,
that`s a whole new standard that`s going to be pretty tough to beat....

Specifically, take a look at the write up for Thurazor if you`re
looking for materials about how goblins treat their natural
environment in contrast to humans.

>Where did you get that the Erebannien was part of the Aelvinnwode,
>or that the forest was so extensive?

It`s in the canon.

Gary

[kgauck]

Humans have preserved the Erebannien and much of the Aelvinnwode.

I think the Erebannien is protected by the High Mage Aelies and Cole and Cale Alwier. Not by humans.

The Aelvinnwode doesn't support the source levels it would if it were Sidhelien. The PS of Talinie is all about the destruction of the forest and how offensive and terrible it its. Torele Anviras was sent back from elf lands to Talinie to prevent a war between Tuarhievel and Talinie over their abuse of the Aelvinwode. Cariele is rapaciousness personified. The Ruins of Empire says they've been brutal to nature, but could care less because its profitable. I suspect Boeruine would be more interested in developing its forest lands if they weren't so vulnerable to Rhuobhe. If you take the heavy handed enviromentalism that in the BR materials, I don't think you can say the humans have protected any forest.

I think there is a traditional fantasy meme about how civilization, or Christianity, or science comes along and the old ways of magic die out. Birthright pits civilization against magic. What's good for humans is hard on nature. I tend to find some of this over the top, so I regard it as elf propaganda. People can and should expand and exploit nature to their advantage.

Of course the elves, being the original owners of the land, being so harmonious with nature that they don't disturb its ability to pool sources, find this all very objectionable. Perhaps they even see humans as the genocidal monsters (the same way a radical environmentalist might hate human development and blame it on various extinctions).

I'm not arguing against elves wanting to retake their lands. I'm arguing that by and large, they're not into genocide.

Well, I don't know for sure how they take back their lands without doing something awful to the humans. They really have to kill them all, co-opt them and change their basic nature (elves as Borg), or enslave them in order to re-establish the natural order and restore the sources. I don't think elves just want the title to their land back, they want it the way it was, and that means no humans, changed humans, or humans who forcibly obey elves. I just don't see how they can get along and play nice. The setting pits them on opposite sides of the civilization-magic problem.

[Lord Rahvin]

>It`s in the canon.
>
>Gary

What kind of ansurd argument is that?! Look just because some "author" wrote some text in an official "book" that has inspired years of gameplay and a small but loyal fanbase, doesn`t mean I can`t have my epic-level gnome anti-paladin.

If you want to use some "canon" stuff in your own homebrew game, that`s fine, but don`t you dare suggest such radical nonsense for our fan-made product of temporary officiality.

Gnome anti-paladins of Anuire, unite! HUZZZAH!!!

-Lord Rahvin



The B...