Sidhelien Spirituality

[AndrewTall]

One possibility for reproduction could be that elves only procreate when in what they consider 'true unions'. If the elf is not with 'their soulmate' then they don't have children - simple as that. That would have the side-effect discourage children by older elves (since they are more likely to have lost their spouse and finding a second soul-mate would be very difficult) but permit the odd exception.

A counter to that argument would however be the elven passionate nature - elves in BR are not by nature a people to have mild likings for others, and while I can see them being very causal about sex - and seeing it as recreational rather than procreational in the main. If procreation is linked to passion then procreation should not be uncommon unless the passion needs to endure for a prolonged period. The choice incidentally will have a significant impact on the presence of half-elves, unless you permit assimilation methods of engendering half elves.

I'd note that sexual fidelity in species tends to be linked to lifestyle, if elven mortality is minimal than fidelity could be a survival characteristic with sequential ties being extremely rare, since promiscuity as a survival characteristic is necessary mainly in species where forming sequential pair-bonds is needed to avoid prolonged isolation and consequential 'wastage of genes'.

[geeman]

At 10:46 AM 1/2/2008, Rowan wrote:

>And geeman, a short period of reproductivity could make for an even
>faster rate of growth than elves who have children once a century or
>so for most of their lives.

I favor the short reproductive period as much for its thematic
emphasis as anything else. Sure, if one tweaked the numbers around
elves who have a procreative life of about a century might very well
have more children then those who have an "average" of 1 child per
century. Conceivably (pun intended) they could have dozens without
pushing reality too far if they are as likely as other races to procreate.

But if I didn`t already mention this, the elven birthrate should be
about flat no matter which way one looks at it. That is, if they
have a relatively short period of 100 years in which they have
children and 1-3 children per union on average. If they remain
productive throughout their lives then then their fertility should be
such that only 1-3 children are likely in whatever one thinks is the
most likely "average" age of a Cerilian elf before he meets his
demise in some way. To me that makes the most sense given the
background material that puts Cerilian elves in decline since the
arrival of humans on the continent. After all, if elves have a short
reproductive period then the numbers are still pretty bad for them--1
child every 40-80 years or so) but if they can reproduce through
their entire lives then that might be 400-800 years, which seems a
bit much to me.

>I believe there are examples of elves and even regents who have had
>several children either young or when 5 centuries or more old. I
>haven`t bothered to look things up yet because I think there are
>many here with a much better recollection of the texts than me. But
>there is some elven queen outside of Anuire who has several children
>to the same human man, thus showing the potential for great fertility.

Or that it is the human/elf combination that creates that potential....

I think it is Treucht you`re referring there, though I can`t be sure
from the info given. Half-elven regent of that land and ehrshegh
momma with, IIRC, something of a deadbeat elven dad.

Can anyone think of examples from the BR materials that would support
either contention here? I`m not coming up with any off the top of my head....

>I can put the math up here if people want to see, but by my
>calculations, elven population growth can only be negated and result
>in by constant (near-annual) mid-level war or occasional (every few
>decades) terrible wars at least equal in scale and proportional
>impact to the population of WWII.

I`d like to see those numbers if you have a chance.

>Either that or catastrophic events like the War of Shadow and
>Deismaar. I expect that elven populations have been steadily
>recovering since then.

Most of the BR canon indicates they`ve been in a fairly steady
decline before and after Deismaar.

>As for the fae basis of the Sidhe, I`d put it on their mercurial,
>nature-spirit tendencies, capacity for evil (Tolkien`s elves were
>mostly inherently good, though they could be forbidding and
>isolationist), and the gheallie Sidhe (which is based directly on
>the Wild Hunt of Celtic lore).

There is a comparison to be made between the WH and the GS, but I
think it`s a bit oblique. We have a much more direct version of the
Wild Hunt (which is as much Germanic as Celtic) in the SW, and that
one is pretty much cribbed from existing versions of that
myth.... The WH is about abject subjugation to a sort of ecstatic
mob bloodlust while the GS exists in various
incarnations/philosophies and is more calculated.

Gary

[Rowan]

I'll clean up my spreadsheet and get it to you. I was assuming a Total Fertility Rate of only 2 children per elven couple when I considered your version of a short reproductive period. Again, the key here is that elves don't die off naturally. That makes a monumental difference in population biology, whether they keep reproducing or not, and ensures that only massive violence can prevent the elves from growing in population.

Where in the canon is there indication of declining populations? Could the decline merely be like Anuire's decline--the decline of elven strength and civilization? I believe that may indeed be declining or have declined, but there is still the possibility of elven renewal. The very existence of elven PC realms and lack of restrictions on ruling elven provinces indicates the possibility of elven renewal should remain open.

[AndrewTall]

Re: elven decline.

As far as I am aware most comment in canon on elven decline compares their current strength to that in pre-Deismaar times, indeed pre-human settlement. Since Deismaar I'm not aware of any significant elven decline noted (not that that says much) - indeed aside from the Raven's assault on Cwmb Bhein and Tuarheviel's loss of Sideath I'm not aware of any decline in modern Cerilian times - Tuar Annwyn is in fact noted as growing.

Add elven isolation to the natural human bias of most of canon and 'elven decline' may simply be a folk myth that masks growing elven strength within their own borders - I'd note that the elves can probably double their population without needing to expand their territory given the low population levels noted in canon and if elves aren't trying to expand their lands they would be unlikely to be seen as growing by local humans.

An idle thought following on from an earlier post, if elven reproduction is impacted by their state of mind, they could have effectively stopped reproducing while grieving over Deismaar, and only started reproducing in numbers relatively recently - allowing DM's to include an abrupt elven expansion drive into their campaign without risking causality issues.

[Lee]

An idle thought following on from an earlier post, if elven reproduction is impacted by their state of mind, they could have effectively stopped reproducing while grieving over Deismaar, and only started reproducing in numbers relatively recently - allowing DM's to include an abrupt elven expansion drive into their campaign without risking causality issues.

It could also be affected by the human reduction of natural places? I wonder if elves living in provinces that have had their source potential reduced might be less fertile? Just a wild thought.

[geeman]

At 07:17 AM 1/3/2008, Rowan wrote:

>I`ll clean up my spreadsheet and get it to you. I was assuming a
>Total Fertility Rate of only 2 children per elven couple when I
>considered your version of a short reproductive period. Again, the
>key here is that elves don`t die off naturally. That makes a
>monumental difference in population biology, whether they keep
>reproducing or not, and ensures that only massive violence can
>prevent the elves from growing in population.

Cool. Thanks in advance.

>Where in the canon is there indication of declining
>populations? Could the decline merely be like Anuire`s decline--the
>decline of elven strength and civilization?

Some of the most extensive material on elven decline is in the PSo
Tuarhieval sourcebook. The material in there doesn`t necessarily say
flat out that population levels have declined (BR materials rarely do
things so clearly) but it discusses a continual decline of the elves
in terms of death and destruction. Where once "the forest reached
from sea to sea and the elves were the undisputed masters of all the
land" they have been continually pushed back into smaller and smaller
regions--and the population levels of those provinces aren`t very
high. For instance, Tuarhieval recently lost Sideath and the rest of
the text spends a good amount of time talking about elven decline/glory days.

Pretty much all the descriptions of the elven domains describe their
decline in one way or another:

Isaelie knows "humans will eventually turn their gazes toward the
Sielwode. The elves won`t be able to resist them for long." RoE 69.

"Now the elves of the Sielwode are few and insular, those of the
Grovnekevic have all but died out, and the Lamia sits in the midst of
the once-great Rhuannadaraight." HotGB 35.

Rhuannach`s elves are "surrounded" and "hard-pressed to defend their
beloved forests...." CotS 45.

Lluabraight is a "remnant of the great and powerful elven kingdoms
that once thrived in this region." RH 57 and that elven realm has
recently lost two provinces. 58.

>I believe that may indeed be declining or have declined, but there
>is still the possibility of elven renewal. The very existence of
>elven PC realms and lack of restrictions on ruling elven provinces
>indicates the possibility of elven renewal should remain open.

Oh, I`m 100% with you on that. In fact, I argued quite a while ago
(and still would make the argument) that given the situation as
presented in the D&D/BR materials Cerilian elves would dominate and
be nigh unstoppable. Their immortality simply overpowers issues
having to do with birthrate because immortality makes for nearly
unstoppable level progression, meaning the entire population is
likely to be levelled up in a way that only a very small number of
mortals attain. Even with play at the domain level, high level elven
characters can be devastatingly powerful. I`ll set a wizard or two
with a couple of appropriate wands up against a unit of knights any
day. Charging knights look funny all smashed up Keystone Kop style
against a Wall of Force.... The argument that divine magics
overpower arcane ones strikes me as being entirely rhetorical and
dogmatic, and the idea that it is human procreation rates that makes
their population numbers higher strikes me as inadequate given that
we have other Cerilian races (gnolls, goblins, etc.) that breed
faster than humans, yet are not assumed to have a similar effect on the elves.

The "decline of the elves" is in many ways thematic rather than born
out by the actual materials. That said, theme is more important than
either background material or game mechanics, so supporting the idea
(at least in the beginning of a campaign) is a good thing, so I think
the decline should exist, but is best explained with rationales that
include those already in the background material, and expand upon
them. That`s why I like suggesting that the "real" reason behind
elven decline is the deforestation that human population engages in
when they expand. Other Cerilian races pretty well leave the trees
alone. Goblins, orogs and even gnolls pretty much leave the trees
alone. Only humans start stripping terrain.

Still, I`ve always liked the idea of a BR campaign based on the idea
of an "elven comeback."

Gary

[Rowan]

I think humanoid races are a threat because of their constant aggression and the difficulty of eradicating such fast-spawning creatures. Humans, however, are more of a threat when they unite in vast numbers and with great order and focus, bringing to bear huge, well-equipped armies supported by both arcane and divine magic. That said, I don't think elves are much threatened by anything less than the union of several powerful human realms, such as during the time of Anuirean Empire.

I am unsure how goblins could drive elves out of their forests, but for vast numbers, such things as demonic summonings, and general sneakiness.

I also think that elven province levels don't reflect populations the same way as humans. Elves accept government less readily than humans, suggesting that there are greater ungoverned populations than in most human lands. Elves are also less productive than humans, and, since province levels are more a measure of productivity than population, I would expect many more elves to live in a province of a given level than humans. Thus, a level 2 elven province might contain an elven population subjecting itself to rule equal to a level 4 province, but just be less productive, and a population aloof from the kingdom equivalent to another 1-4 province levels.

By this reasoning, I don't think elven provinces should have any restrictions on Ruling them, and their populations could be quite large even at current province levels. Elven decline is as much elven retreat as anything, and, now that their realms are (possibly) becoming more crowded, they could see that the time to reclaim what was lost has come. Even though the forests may have declined, after all, most of the Aelvinnwode remains under the control of non-elven peoples, as does the Erebannien. These could be resettled and consolidated if an elven resurgence took place during the absence of Anuirean unity.

[Beruin]

I also think that elven province levels don't reflect populations the same way as humans. Elves accept government less readily than humans, suggesting that there are greater ungoverned populations than in most human lands. Elves are also less productive than humans, and, since province levels are more a measure of productivity than population, I would expect many more elves to live in a province of a given level than humans. Thus, a level 2 elven province might contain an elven population subjecting itself to rule equal to a level 4 province, but just be less productive, and a population aloof from the kingdom equivalent to another 1-4 province levels.

I don't really buy the productivity argument. I'd agree that elves are slow producers, but their products are by far of higher quality. An elven artisan might only produce one piece for every ten pieces a human craftsman churns out, but his work will easily be worth ten times the price. In terms of revenue therefore, it evens out in the end.
OTOH, I can't really see an elven ruler taxing his subjects like a human king would, so we should perhaps think on how an elven realm would get its money. Voluntary contributions?

[Rowan]

Beruin, I agree with your point when it comes to guilds and trade routes. However, province income is from taxation, and, especially for more isolated elven realms, isn't gold so much as cash value resources like foodstuffs, cloth, military items. If taxation is used to cover domain action costs and mustering and providing for armies, I think it would need to be in the form of these other resources.

I doubt elves mass produce weaponry, for instance, though it is likely all masterwork, and they don't farm great stretches of land. So as far as province income is concerned, I do think they are less productive individually than humans (and the quality of those goods doesn't really matter at this level), though how much so is hard to quantify.

[kgauck]

However, province income is from taxation.

What is taxation but a cut from the labor of those who work? Who is taxed, what is taxed, and where is it taxed? These questions could have any answers. You can tax movement of people in the form of tolls, or goods in the form of tariffs, you can tax activities by use of fees. You can tax people, wealth, objects, almost anything you want. Province income can look like or be whatever you want. It can be identical to guild profits, temple incomes, or something entirely different.

Generally medieval taxes were non-monetary requirements for service. If you were a worker, you worked for the tax, if you were a warrior, you fought for your tax. Labor taxes are, one can reason, one of the more significant taxes for both elves and men.

The standard Anuirean calandar has 8 days a week. You can always calculate 12.5% by requiring one day of work (or service) per week. Or there are 48 weeks, so 48 days works out to the same figure. That way you can put the days together and raise armies that serve as a tax for 48 days, and require pay after that. If you want more or less as a tax rate, you can add days of labor or recognize holidays.