Ideas, Need Comments

[Mark_Aurel]

I think Birthright should be divorced fully from the previous Planescape cosmology - that was actually the Greyhawk cosmology that TSR applied to all their worlds, so they could justify characters crossing over, or whatever.

That said, let's look at what we got - we have the Shadow World, which is a very strong world element, and then there's the brief godly domain descriptions or names in the Book of Priestcraft. I don't think the latter need be taken strictly as is, given that it was written within the context of being forced into an existing system, rather than defining a cosmological system of its own to fit the core game world better.

My view of Birthright cosmology tends to focus on the different natures of the old and new gods. The old gods seem to me to have been more elemental and primal in nature, whereas the new gods are ascended humans, and remain more closely tied to that aspect, yet separate themselves more from human affairs than the old gods did.

The Shadow World currently seems like a natural point to begin - the realm spirits journey through towards their afterlife destinations. Its nature changed after the battle of Deismaar - and prior to the battle of Deismaar, the Shadow World as described then doesn't necessarily strike me as being as much of a world through which the spirits of the dead would journey as much as it seems to be a fairytale land (and I don't tend to equate that with "where the dead journey," but perhaps it could still be used - something like the spirits of the dead would pass through the Shadow World at night, when the fae were hidden).

Beyond the aspect of "the dead pass through the Shadow World," it doesn't necessarily strike me as having been much of a transitive plane as it was before - more like a happy mirror world than anything else. Would it be logical to presume that this changed along with the nature of the plane?

What if the dead in the days of the old gods didn't go on to some heavenly or hellish domain, apart from the greatest heroes and foulest villains, but rather joined with the elemental spirit of the world or whatever, so that their souls would be purified, reincarnated, and born anew or something - something much more similar to what happens to dead elves (which I think was discussed in one of the BR novels - Greatheart or something - not that I hold that as canon at all) and that this changed when the old gods died, and the new gods came into being - the new gods, being closer to men, and less primal in their nature, would open their realms to all dead spirits, and then have them come there, and thus maintain their individuality after their deaths, breaking the old reincarnation cycle - out of pity or sorrow.

In the same vein, the godly realms would seem to logically be tied to some manifestations of the elemental natures of the old gods - that their domains themselves were coexistent or coterminous with Aebrynis at certain points, rather than having to go through the Shadow World to get at them; i.e. in order to cross to Anduiras' domain, you'd have to scale to the top of the highest peaks, in order to get to Masela's domain, you'd have to sail until the ends of the sea. Then, with the coming of the new gods, this was changed, and the gods drew farther from the world, anchoring their domains in the Shadow World instead, and drawing the spirits of the dead through that world. The very nature of the old gods' domains might've been that of pristine, pure nature, while the new gods erected great palaces and cities there, to house the coming of the spirits of the dead. The change in the nature of the Shadow World might thus've been only partially the Cold Rider's doing - perhaps such a cosmological shift is what enabled him to do what he is doing (speculating about speculation, blah).

Finally, angels, devils, demons, and similar outsiders, would be the great heroes and villains of old, those who retained their individuality beyond death while the old gods still lived - each infused with a portion of divine might. They'd have been the greatest servants of the old gods, both in life and in death - this'd set up an interesting niche for these creatures as well, I think - they'd retain knowledge not even the new gods have direct access to. This version of a Cerilian cosmology also seems to lend itself well to an epic campaign - perhaps having spirits live on in the afterlife is weakening the natural world slowly, killing the world itself, and that this must thus come to a tragic end at some point?

I think this is a potentially workable view on the Cerilian cosmology - I definitely don't think the Great Wheel cosmology is appropriate.

[kgauck]

One thing to consider in a cosmology is the seperation between what is true
from the DM`s perspective and what is known to characters. Players may
occupy some middle ground, or they may be as ignorant as their characters
(except they are aware its a game construct). While I appreciate a source
like the Planescape stuff for its potential for mining, I`d rather build the
cosmology around what the charcters know and can do. As much as possible,
I`d like to have the cosmology explain everyday things like turning undead
or resisting the lures of the fey.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[geeman]

At 07:46 PM 5/27/2003 -0500, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

>One thing to consider in a cosmology is the seperation between what is true
>from the DM`s perspective and what is known to characters. Players may
>occupy some middle ground, or they may be as ignorant as their characters
>(except they are aware its a game construct). While I appreciate a source
>like the Planescape stuff for its potential for mining, I`d rather build the
>cosmology around what the charcters know and can do. As much as possible,
>I`d like to have the cosmology explain everyday things like turning undead
>or resisting the lures of the fey.

This is a very good point, and one that I think is amongst the hardest
things for the DM to do. Being the DMing geniuses that we are :) we can
all come up with amazing, fantastic, amusing and entertaining campaign
material... but resisting the urge to reveal that material to the players
until the appropriate moment can mean the difference between a good
campaign and a bad one. I`m going to relate a little anecdote from a
campaign I ran... geez, guess it must have been over a decade ago in order
to illustrate the point.

Unbeknownst to the players the campaign setting was a thickly disguised
version of the real world with NPCs that represented myself, the players,
and several people we knew in common. I`ve done that a couple of times in
campaigns and I would recommend it to everyone as a DM technique to find
"unique" characters for a campaign and as a method of determining the
motivations, attitudes and personalities of NPCs. As DM when one comes
upon those inevitable situations in which one has no idea what an NPC would
do one can ask, "Now what would <insert real person> do in that situation?"
to come up with a behavior. The important thing about that is to keep your
campaign notes secret or in your head--otherwise players get a look behind
the curtain that`s best left unsaid. One particularly poignant way of
doing this is to make a NPC particularly close to a PC (a henchmen or
cohort) the player himself. Not only does that make it very easy to
remember, but it gives the DM plenty of opportunities to "stick it" to the
player without him realizing it.... ;)

That campaign went for two or three years pretty much like any other D&D
campaign, but with probably a more "fantastic" or "fairy tale" theme. Lots
of things like talking dogs and floating cities. Several players came and
went. Eventually, it looked like the campaign was winding down. In the
end there were two players who went on an adventure to find the Primal Pool
which would reveal the origin of all things. Deep in that campaign`s
version of the Underdark (no drow or kuo-toa--it contained things more like
a race of pygmies that lived in the fossilized corpse of a giant,
Godzilla-sized skeleton, and the mystic turtle god whose breathing changed
the seasons) they found the Pool.

"We look into the pool," one player said.

"It shimmers. There is a flash of light. Soon your vision clears to
reveal three figures sitting at a table. All three appear human, but they
wear strange clothes and many of the items in the room are strange to
you. They are surrounded by books and writing implements. Two of them
look pensively at the third...."

There I paused and just looked at them. Several moments went by. It was
an uncomfortable silence. As I recall, I couldn`t quite wipe the smirk
from my face....

"What are they doing?" one player eventually asked.

"One of them is speaking and another has responded. You don`t understand
their language," I replied.

"I have Comprehend Languages permanently on," the other player noted.

"It doesn`t matter. You can`t understand their language. The conversation
continues...." (There was a brief debate about the use of that spell
through crystal balls, which I had to make clear I was over-ruling as a DM
fiat.)

It took a couple of minutes, but as they asked more questions and I
described the appearance of the figures and items in the room in more
detail, they recognized what was going on. The PCs were having a vision of
the players themselves (and myself) sitting at that very table and playing
the campaign.

My point here is that I came up with the denouement of that adventure
somewhat spontaneously, but the "cosmology" of that campaign world--that
the players would eventually find out that the universe was a fiction and
that they themselves (and me) were the primal force that created it--had
been in the back of my mind for a long time. While that wasn`t the plan to
begin with after I still had to keep that secret for years after deciding
that was was how it was going to go! There were hints at it during play,
but nothing to ruin the surprise, and I`ll tell ya` the secret was near
killing me. The temptation to reveal campaign material to players that PCs
would not have access to can be very strong, but it`s important for the DM
to keep mum on that stuff. In the long run it makes for a more
entertaining gaming experience.

Gary

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