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Thread: Population

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    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Population

    Discussion thread for Population. If you would like to add a comment, click the Post Reply button.

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    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    I've gone back and forth on how to report populations, at various times using province level squared times one thousand, and at other times using province level squared times five thousand. Clearly, I regard 5kP² as the lowest plausible population density to allow us to assume things like Galleons, knights, and cities. However, aware that this is an issue of some controversy, I've been looking for a content neutral way to present population information.

    Here is what I propose. We use the numbers as found in the Table 5-1: Province Level. However, we make the term "Population" a link to the page I've put under discussion. It states that the BR community is divided on the issue of how to interpret population numbers, and offers two common positions: population represents the number of people in a province, and this population is too low by a factor of five to ten. The solution is that we use the population figures from table 5-1 without stating whether these mean people or families. In general, we avoid clarifying the issue. Its normally not required. If a description calls for picking one or another, give both positions a statement.

    This is consistent with our neutrality policy.

    Thoughts?

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    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    I prefer a higher population, but that's because I prefer to think of a campaign with intrigue etc and that requires more people.

    Leaving vague if the population represents adults, voters, taxpayers, hearths, families, etc allows considerable variation. The population does have a major impact on descriptions of towns and cities (a town of 1,000 is very different to a town of 10,000) and on army sizes - 5-10% of the population under arms has a sizable effect on PC battle impact.

    But since we won't agree, the arguments have been regularly been rehashed, and the campaign needs for a points of light campaign and a renaissance intrigue campaign as so different I'd go for leaving it vague, but with some wiki pages commenting on various interpretations.

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    Site Moderator Sorontar's Avatar
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    To quote the wiki page of the BRCS section "Components of a domain":
    Table 5-1: Province level provides a rough metric for determining the number of taxpaying human commoners in a rural province .... Table 5-1 also indicates the size of the largest settlements likely to be found in a rural province of the indicated level.
    Many provinces have multiple urban areas so this means that the population on the table is really under estimating the province population. Where it becomes accurate is in Rjuirk provinces like Valkheim where the PS state that there is only one settlement. This means that all other communities in the population are just thorps (ie. a farming community that lives near each other) which I take to be 0-200 people.

    For Valkheim (province level 1) it says there is only one village (Eriksgaard, which I give a population around 700 which could be 140 families of 5 people) but the original Jarl's estate (Varrik) is still occupied. So I take the estate to only have a small population (population 75, 15 families of 5). Personally, those numbers look too big for a village, even if we include farms that supply it.

    The table needs to explain itself better. Is it saying that a province with 30,000 will have a small city in it (of unknown population), or is it saying that a small city will have a population level of 30,000 which is the same population as a level 6 province. I suspect that it really should be the first of those, but people (like me) have been misreading it as a bit of the second case.

    Sorontar.

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    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Most settlements in southern England had an average population of 500-600 residents. Those that got up to 1000 residents started to experience the social stratification we associate with town life. We're talking high middle ages here, pre-plague. If the Rjurik are to use the Medieval analog, (rather than Dark Ages or Renaissance) then 500-600 residence for a typical village should be common.

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    Sorontar, you refer to BRCS combined with original material?

    Does it say what a province level in terms of population means in RoE? Taxpayers or general population? I never found the word taxpayers there, so population means all the people to me, children and adults.

    "Province (0), less that 1000 people. Widely scattered homesteads or tiny villages.
    Province (1) to (3), 2000 to 10000 people. Thinly settled rural regions or one or two towns of 1000 people or less.
    Province (4) to (6), 10000 to 40000 people. Settled farmlands with small industries. Major towns may have up to 5000 people.
    Province (7) or greater, as high as 100 000 people. Densely settled, with well developed industries and major cities."

    I agree that the table needs to be explained better. From this description I wrote it seems that the largest settlement would have up to half the province's population.
    Rey M. - court wizard of Tuarhievel

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    Site Moderator Sorontar's Avatar
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    The table I am working from here (don't have RoE on hand) is from the wiki but seems to match my copy of the BRCS. Sorry it doesn't format too well.

    Table 5-1: Province Level
    Level: Citizens, Largest Settlement
    0: 0 Thorp
    1: 1,000 Hamlet
    2: 4,000 Village
    3: 7,000 Small town
    4: 10,000 Large town
    5: 20,000 Large town
    6: 30,000 Small city
    7: 40,000 Large city
    8: 60,000 Large city
    9: 80,000 Metropolis
    10: 100,000 Metropolis

    I invented the numbers for Valkheim based on what communities seem to be mentioned in published material (the village and the estate), the fact it is a level 1 province and the fact that historically the aim was *not* to settle there (but things seemed to have changed over time, due to the existence of the village).

    Sorontar
    ps. strictly speaking I guess the table makes Eriksgaard a hamlet, not a village.
    Last edited by Sorontar; 06-26-2008 at 01:36 AM. Reason: postscript

  8. #8
    What is on the Wiki jives with ROE:

    Code:
    Level 0: less than 1,000
    Level 1-3: 2,000 to 10,000
    Level 4-6: 10,000 to 40,000
    Level 7+: 40,000-100,000
    Quote Originally Posted by BR2E: Ruins of Empire
    • Level 0 provinces are wild, unsettled, or untenable, home to nothing more than widely scattered homesteads or tiny villages. The overall population is usually less than 1,00 people.
    • Level 1 to level 3 provinces are thinly settled rural regions, with small villages and one or two towns of 1,000 people or less. The population may range from 2,000 to 10,000 people.
    • Level 4 to level 6 provinces are settled farmlands with small industries. Major towns may have populations of up to 5,000 people, and the overall population ranges from 10,000 to 40,000
    • Level 7 or greater provinces are densely settled, with well-developed industries and major cities. Population may be as high as 100,000 people.

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    Site Moderator Sorontar's Avatar
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    Thanks Autarkis. In that case I certainly have given too big a population for Eriksgaard. If it is the main community in Valkheim, the province is only level 1 (pop. 1000),and a small town is considered as pop. 1000, then the population of Eriksgaard should be about 200 (40 families of five adults). That sounds right.

    Hamlet = 100-200
    Village = 500
    Small town = 1000

    So a province level 1 (1000) only consists of homes (5+ each) and hamlets (200)

    Does that fit for you Kenneth and Rey?

    This would make Varrik have a population of under 100 because it is not as big as Eriksgaard.

    Sorontar.

  10. #10
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    Sorontar, to tell you the truth, I don't know anymore.
    Compared to Hogunmark's 200k on brwiki, Eriksgaard should probably have at least couple of k.
    Rey M. - court wizard of Tuarhievel

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