New Gods and Old

[masterdaorin]

Of the 8 gods that were created from Deismaar, 6 became parents. The only two that did not (at least yet) are the two who took Azrai's essence. Why is that?

Aren't they siblings?

I seem to remember reading in the canon material somewhere that they are brother and sister...

Anyway, even if they aren't, I don't think either trusts each other enough to get close enough for procreation...

They would probably both end up stabbing each other in the heart...

[Fizz]

Aren't they siblings?
I seem to remember reading in the canon material somewhere that they are brother and sister...

I don't think i've ever heard that before. To my knowledge, Belinik and Kriesha are not siblings.

Anyway, even if they aren't, I don't think either trusts each other enough to get close enough for procreation...
They would probably both end up stabbing each other in the heart...

Indeed. I think they only way it could occur is if they thought they'd get something out of it. In my hypothetical campaign, they each try to use their daughter for their own purposes, but she rebels and becomes uncontrollable by either of them.


-Fizz

[Sorontar]

For all we know, new gods could be created by two or more gods fighting each other, their powers and reality all mixing. Primal chaos reigned. Time and the pure essences of heaven, the moisture of the earth and the powers of the sun and the moon worked upon a certain rock old as creation, and it became magically fertile. Elemental forces caused the egg to hatch. From it then came a stone mon.....

I'll stop now. It was irrepressible.

[AndrewTall]

I used to have it the other way around in my campaigns. I had wizardly magic work by drawing on the seeming for greater magic (anything except illusions, divination and charms), the wizard created the effect they desired in the awnmebhaighl and then drew it from the Shadow World into Cerilia.

priestly magic then worked the same way but by rote rather than reason - the unconscious will of the populace created the realms of the gods in the shadow world, the priest then drew upon this collective strength to do the same thing. Since the priest didn't gather the power in this approach I could justify having many more spell casting priests than wizards (although they still weren't that common).

So in my game the gods were a creation of the people, and priests didn't communicate with a distinct divine being when they prayed or used various spells, but with, at best, the collective dreaming minds of their temple's flock, and mostly merely their own subconscious.

The new gods then arose after Deismaar because the people wanted to believe, something had clearly happened to the old gods (witnessed at the battle of Mount Deismaar and by the lack of granted spells since) and so someone else needed to take their place - add a few charismatic preachers and as soon as a critical mass is achieved to get some priestly magic going, the magic then proves the validity of the new faith and it snowballs from there.

The new gods are then the result of basic myth-making as great hero's get incorporated into the mythology, or deluded but charismatic preachers manage to create something new.

I think I did the change in approach mainly so I didn't have to role-play a god as DM, and so I could make it easier to have messy temples with internal politics and bickering, things I saw as hard to justify if there were actual active gods in the center of the faith.

[masterdaorin]

I think I did the change in approach mainly so I didn't have to role-play a god as DM, and so I could make it easier to have messy temples with internal politics and bickering, things I saw as hard to justify if there were actual active gods in the center of the faith.

I wouldn't call the new gods active in their faiths.

In fact, these formal mortals seem to be the opposite of their predecessors.

Has anyone ever tried to explain this in their campaign?

I've always been under the impression that the new gods are rather... cautious about their newfound power, including Belinik and Kriesha.

The question becomes: why?

[Osprey]

I wouldn't call the new gods active in their faiths.

In fact, these formal mortals seem to be the opposite of their predecessors.

Has anyone ever tried to explain this in their campaign?

I've always been under the impression that the new gods are rather... cautious about their newfound power, including Belinik and Kriesha.

The question becomes: why?

The canon explanation, where they agree never to manifest and fight directly on Aebrynis, seems to be that they are all afraid of another Deismaar explosion destroying some or all of them like it did their predecessors.

So I always assumed that there are 2 main reasons for the new gods' caution:
1. They know they can be destroyed by each other and who knows what other ways.
Belenik and Kreisha, who may not even be a part of the pact, must still be aware of it, and know they are terribly outnumbered and outpowered by the rest of the Cerilian pantheon. The 2 of them together - if they can even cooperate - represent only a fraction of Azrai's original power.
2. They are former mortals learning to be gods, and the inexperience of wielding such power has made them worry about what consequences they might unwittingly unleash upon Aebrynis. I imagine the more they learn, the more they fear how every action they take can send world-bending ripples through both worlds (Aebrynis and the Shadow World), and not always in the ways they intend - like how empowering their own champions can spur the rising of counter-forces and ends up making their rival deities and their followers stronger.

A possible 3rd reason could be the growing corruption of the Shadow World - which is suggested to have been caused by the Deismaar event - might be worsened by every application of great power from the gods. If we have the gods being native to the Shadow World and not the outer planes, this theory gains a lot of credence, because we can then see the application of gods' power as application of Shadow World power - and what happens to the barrier between these worlds when such events occur?
riiiiiiip goes the veil...

All that being said, in my own campaigns I also speculate that the new generation of gods: Cuiraecen, Laerme, and Eloele - did not experience Desimaar, and have not internalized the trauma of that cataclysmic event like their parents did (I mean...the champions had their GODS and most of their armies blow up in front of them!). So if any among the new gods are going to be more irresponsible, less cautious, and create unwitting consequences in both worlds, I think these 3 (and any other newer gods a DM might want to add) would be the most likely culprits.

[masterdaorin]

The canon explanation, where they agree never to manifest and fight directly on Aebrynis, seems to be that they are all afraid of another Deismaar explosion destroying some or all of them like it did their predecessors.

But... immortals worrying about their own mortality? How odd, wouldn't you say...?

So I always assumed that there are 2 main reasons for the new gods' caution:

Two very good points, and probably the same conclusions reached by the vast majority of anyone who cares to think about this subject.

And then...

A possible 3rd reason could be the growing corruption of the Shadow World - which is suggested to have been caused by the Deismaar event - might be worsened by every application of great power from the gods. If we have the gods being native to the Shadow World and not the outer planes, this theory gains a lot of credence, because we can then see the application of gods' power as application of Shadow World power - and what happens to the barrier between these worlds when such events occur?
riiiiiiip goes the veil...

There is this reason.

Oddly enough, I've never seen this traumatic type of event as ripping the veil, as it were...

But, rather, a thickening the veil. A wound attempting to heal itself... A scar separating the two worlds, where things are no longer in touch with their spiritual (or fey) nature.

And, yet, we have observable proof that the veil is thinning in certain places...

The question then becomes, why?

My answer has always come back to: Did Azrai set this all up? Did the Shadow Lord purposefully tempt his siblings to enable this act for some purpose that they failed to see...? A calculated gamble... that seems to have paid off?

All that being said, in my own campaigns I also speculate that the new generation of gods: Cuiraecen, Laerme, and Eloele - did not experience Desimaar, and have not internalized the trauma of that cataclysmic event like their parents did (I mean...the champions had their GODS and most of their armies blow up in front of them!). So if any among the new gods are going to be more irresponsible, less cautious, and create unwitting consequences in both worlds, I think these 3 (and any other newer gods a DM might want to add) would be the most likely culprits.

Eloele does seem to be something of a wild child. Each is gaining in popularity, being proactive...

These facts come right back around to the first question of why the gods had these three kids in the first place...

Oh, what a tangled web of gods and mortals they weave...

[Malphas]

But... immortals worrying about their own mortality? How odd, wouldn't you say...?

first they know for a fact that they are mortal.
second immortals pondering mortality is quite common in many media
so no i would not think it odd even if they were not former humans

Oddly enough, I've never seen this traumatic type of event as ripping the veil, as it were...

But, rather, a thickening the veil. A wound attempting to heal itself... A scar separating the two worlds, where things are no longer in touch with their spiritual (or fey) nature.

IMO detonating a nuke in proximity to a containment wall doesn't improve the containment nor thicken the wall. the sideath lichgate incident (and likely many others)
don't improve things either. even if the evanessence was trying to heal and form scar tissue (scars are not actually tougher per say) everyone and their daughter ripping the wound open a bit is not helping.

And, yet, we have observable proof that the veil is thinning in certain places...

The question then becomes, why?

My answer has always come back to: Did Azrai set this all up? Did the Shadow Lord purposefully tempt his siblings to enable this act for some purpose that they failed to see...? A calculated gamble... that seems to have paid off?

we need to remember that azrai was against the worlds being split in the first place.
while i find the whole thing being a gamble a bit cheap that would make some sence.
funny since i also thought tuar to have made a gamble as well (to be rid of all gods)
that would make niceguy syndrome (anduiras) and co the only strait actors at deismar.
them and gorgon i guess.

more to the main topic. as another thread pointed out there is one more source of new gods. the one serpent is spearheading. we have divine blood derping around...

[Outlaw Pope]

First post on the forum! Hello.

I have been a long time player in the Forgotten Realms and Athas' setting but I recently acquired BRs material and have really enjoyed jumping into it. I like its quirks and feeling at large in the DnD multiverse.

What I have felt in my first reading is it seems Aebrynis and the sphere it is in is relatively young compared to other prime realms - the mythology as far as Cerilia's records seems to only (maybe) go back to like 20k years when the elves first formed and the 6 "nice gods" forming the world by tying their existence to reality itself and their errant brother Azrai not really liking it very much.

Why I rehash that is it seems like Azrai, in his hate and want to domineering and obliterate the creation that his siblings wrought and wanting to return to a less ruled setting - sort of opened the floodgates of both interlopers and new powers.

Personally he invited the gods of the humanoids and their creations (at least in the way as its described. I am not entirely sure if the lore we get in the Atlas and Rulebook is meant to be a flawed IC narrative). One could suppose then that if he brought them there or opened the doors, that other entities might enter if they can stomach passing through the corrupted Shadow World.

I could readily see more demons, devils, and other dark gods just sort of ambling in to corrupt/destroy/meddle.

We already have Moradin and the dwarves in the more kindly part. I noticed Maglubiyet and his subservient gods got mentioned by name instead of his potential aspect in Kaltathor (though that could have been errata). Titania even seems to have an aspect and some sort of dominion over fey and elves (in lieu of Corellon, though the elves have always had a little fey side story and the Seldarine are friends of the Seelie Court) here.

Azrai being the "lord of chaos" may have hoped to just dislodged his siblings by inviting frenemies or create problems for them and their legacies. It could mean that all sorts of things might be coming through.

The Shadow World, even in its corrupted state, seems less like a barrier that prevents and more like a "this is literally the only road to interact with the prime world and people of this sphere". As in - it might be a hassle for some to want to come and given its backwater nature maybe not seen as an ideal candidate to export divine essence.

Beyond that - I totally got the vibe that the Bloodlines, especially the DIVINE RIGHT and fellowship/vassalage thing was meant to both emulate and hint at possible apotheosis - not so much for worldly kings/priests/guildsguys - but for the transformed people given how they seem to have their own beyond-mortal presence after a certain level. The Fae or the Gorgon ooze supernatural.

So I also do not think its farfetched new gods might be/have been intended from there as well.

Again- all of this is my first read through and merely my feelings on that read of the AD&D material. I find it all curious as well - it seemed like they wanted to go all kinds of places before it unfortunately was cut short.

(I also feel like, with how some people from that project were involved in 4e that the Shadowfell & Feywild were basically the Shadow World / Spirit World.)

[Malphas]

had a discussion with my playgroup and we came up with the 3 child gods (one for each of the new gods pairings). they kind of seem to work best if used together tho.
none are named, have no spheres assigned or avatars/symbols created.

Eloéle+laerme= either gender-less or female deity of dawn and dusk. meetings and partings, and forbidden love. animal: lark or nightingale

Cuiraécen+Eloéle= female goddess of strategy and tactics. with espionage, scouting and other information gathering. animal: raven

Cuiraécen+Laerme= male god of social (and to lesser extent scientific) progress. highly chaotic. animal: buterfly

any thoughts?

@Outlaw Pope
i think birthright (similar to darksun) is best viewed aside from the more interconnected worlds. don't try mashing similar deities together and realize that birthright demihumans are quite different (not necessarily mechanically) from the phb counterparts.
just my opinion