Can Cerilia handle: The plethora of paladins revisited!!

[irdeggman]

So humans do have it free enough to do away with paladins, since if they have only two classes (cleric and something else), then they can divide them any way they want. So do dwarves, really, since fighter/priest is exactly what they ought to be. Those two are the only ones that matter, unless you count halfling cleric/rogues of Eloele, which also works just fine.


Ryan

Now that works fine for humans and dwarves (assuming that a paladin of moradin is a fighter/cleric hybrid).

How about halfling cleric/rangers of Erik?

Or halfling cleric/fighter (and/or magician/wizard)'s of Avani?

The 2nd ed material did say that Avani was the halflings' favored deity.

What about Cuircean? Paladins of the storm lord are really not all that much "priestly" are they? I mean in 2nd ed - no spells and no turning undead.

How about Avani? There should be some magician or wizard in there really in order to capture that one (so really a triple class prerequisite).

Nesire?

More priestly than fighter, IMO, but a fighter/priest hybrid could work.

[ryancaveney]

assuming that a paladin of moradin is a fighter/cleric hybrid

That seems right to me.

What about Cuircean? Paladins of the storm lord are really not all that much "priestly" are they? I mean in 2nd ed - no spells and no turning undead.

As part of representing paladins without the paladin class, we already have to interpret the paladin's other abilities (laying on hands, fear resistance, et al.) as spells themselves, so some spellcasting will enter the picture lest stormlords become solely fighters. On the other hand, the nice thing about removing paladin as a specific class means it's very easy to show differences between religious specialties just by distribution of class levels (though of course those won't really show up until the higher levels). For example, while a 12th-level paladin of Haelyn might be a Ftr 6 / Clr 6, an equivalent paladin of Cuiraecen might instead be a Ftr 8 / Clr 4. This makes "paladin" not a game-mechanic, but rather a description of the social role the character takes on, which seems right to me. In fact, since such paladin-archetypes are far more likely to be adventurers than administrators, and I suspect most priests in Haelyn's temple heirarchy are mostly Aristocrat/Experts with just one or two dimly-remembered caster levels acquired in seminary school, the "paladins" are probably better spellcasters than the "priests", considered as social roles rather than character class names.

How about Avani? There should be some magician or wizard in there really in order to capture that one (so really a triple class prerequisite).

I have several different possible responses to this, and the other special cases you raised.

One: what is the reason for the xp penalty? I am inclined to just ignore it for simplicity.

Two: paladin is supposed to be a difficult path pursued by only a few, so I am not really worried about imposing an extra cost on some of them.

Three: triple-classing for Avani, Ruornil or others isn't really necessary if you customize their clerical spell lists properly.


Ryan

[kgauck]

The easiest way to give Avani and Ruornil a touch of arcanist without requiring triple classing is permit a small number of arcane spells to be cast as divine. Either through a fixed number (3 spells) or fixed slots (1 spell per level) or, my favorite, allow 10 spell points to be cast on arcane spells.

Its also possible for priests of Ruornil to have free multi-classing with sorcerers, and Avani to have free multi-classing with wizards. Multi-classing is less onerous if you have a pool of magical ability that can slosh back and forth between the two classes. However, while I think theurge types are common enough in temples of Avani and Ruornil, the paladin type is probably a fighter/priest who can dabble in arcane goodness.

[MatanThunder]

Or you could just play it 2nd ed.

Originally Posted by irdeggman
assuming that a paladin of moradin is a fighter/cleric hybrid

Or you can have him a true paladin with powers commensorate with the Moradin portfolio. The original thread was about if the varied classes of paladins were viable in the game.....maybe not in 3.??....but it can be done if a DM has the will to have it played out that way.

Ruornil a touch of arcanist without requiring

Ruornil needs to be triple classed to use powers of magic in 3.??....There's your problem.

In all the diatribe about this fine point and that fine point there is absolutely NO reason why the "Plethora of Paladins isn't a viable part of the game.

Each to their own....but the rules allow for its functionality and usefulness as defenders of the faith.
Later

[kgauck]

The original thread was about if the varied classes of paladins were viable in the game.....maybe not in 3.??....but it can be done if a DM has the will to have it played out that way.

But, we're all cowards and frightened of change, even back to the glories of 2.0.

Ruornil needs to be triple classed to use powers of magic in 3.??....There's your problem.

Oh 3.0 is so cool, to cast a first level spell he needs three classes, two feats, an elective granted power, has to choose the non-combat option, gets spell points equal to half his character level times his Int modifier divided by his willpower divisior. Then when he wants to cast a spell he has to compare his spellcasting rating to his current Int divisor and look up the energy availabilty matrix which is convieniently in both the DMG in appendix XXIII and in the PHB in sidebar 7-12, then you look up the spell requirement rating of the spell and see if you can cast it. Its pretty easy, just as easy as it was in 2e.

[Thelandrin]

Oh 3.0 is so cool, to cast a first level spell he needs three classes, two feats, an elective granted power, has to choose the non-combat option, gets spell points equal to half his character level times his Int modifier divided by his willpower divisior. Then when he wants to cast a spell he has to compare his spellcasting rating to his current Int divisor and look up the energy availabilty matrix which is convieniently in both the DMG in appendix XXIII and in the PHB in sidebar 7-12, then you look up the spell requirement rating of the spell and see if you can cast it. Its pretty easy, just as easy as it was in 2e.

I'm assuming that's irony, Kgauck.

The follower of Ruornil mayneed to be triple-classed in 3rd Ed, but at least they have the option of those three classes. While I enjoyed 2nd Ed enormously, the inflexibility of the classes and the near-total inability to change your profession once you've started now bug me with the introduction of 3rd Ed.

[MatanThunder]

The follower of Ruornil mayneed to be triple-classed in 3rd Ed, but at least they have the option of those three classes.

Not my cup of tea I'm afraid....now let me dual or triple class the PC....there you have a keeper for a PC....Ruornil or no.

While I enjoyed 2nd Ed enormously, the inflexibility of the classes and the near-total inability to change your profession once you've started now bug me with the introduction of 3rd Ed.

In 2nd ed they allowed humans (*and some DM's allowed the other races to do it to) so that you could dual class or even triple class should you survive the inevitible strains caused by those low levels in the new (dual/triple) class.

Also some of us DM's diversified the multiclassing of those races capable of employing them.

So 2nd ed did allow for the changing of class.

I also allowed (with the sacrafice of 1 FULL level of exp) that a dual class PC could switch back and forth between these classes from time to time.

House rules.....now all you had to do is find a good DM who liked inventiveness.

we're all cowards and frightened of change,

I thought so...... ....had to be something like that!!

Oh 3.0 is so cool, to cast a first level spell he needs three classes, two feats, an elective granted power, has to choose the non-combat option, gets spell points equal to half his character level times his Int modifier divided by his willpower divisior. Then when he wants to cast a spell he has to compare his spellcasting rating to his current Int divisor and look up the energy availabilty matrix which is convieniently in both the DMG in appendix XXIII and in the PHB in sidebar 7-12, then you look up the spell requirement rating of the spell and see if you can cast it.

Its pretty easy, just as easy as it was in 2e.

Wait.....take a class, pick your proficienies, pick your spells......and each system has that ol's racial choice too. Seems a little easier to me.....you even get a number of bonus spells if you have access and use that table from the Dragon Magazine....sort of like the clerics spell bonus....a lot better to start with more spells.

Later

[RaspK_FOG]

Read those lines, people (as you cannot see my lips, anyway): variant classes.

While I assume that the project cannot employ them to any truly great extent, we may add some of these in order to provide a variant, say in an article or something (now that would REALLY be my cup of tee: priests of Eric with holy, druidic, and ranger abilities, warrior-paladins of Cuiraécen, magic-using priests of Ruornil, and so on)!

As for the whole 2e-vs-3e, no, neither multi-classing nor dual-classing made much sense outside their perspective: "You are effectively starting anew; since you gain levels in an altogether new class, using the abilities of the old class will hold you back, rendering you unable to proceed any further - you get no XP this session because you smacked things like a warrior, not a priest..." Kind of silly considering how you still got some XP for smacking things as a priest anyway, even if doing it as a warrior paid off much more, right? I mean, if you CAN GET XP for killing moving things as a man of the church, why is a man of the church using his prior training as a man of the church-of-hit-something-very-hard-if-possible NOT GETTING ANY XP for doing JUST THAT!?

[kgauck]

Read those lines, people (as you cannot see my lips, anyway): variant classes.

While I assume that the project cannot employ them to any truly great extent, we may add some of these in order to provide a variant, say in an article or something (now that would REALLY be my cup of tee: priests of Eric with holy, druidic, and ranger abilities, warrior-paladins of Cuiraécen, magic-using priests of Ruornil, and so on)!

This is exactly what where the wiki really shines. Feel free to post class varients, articles (observations) on the use of a varient, or discussions of the "classic" build for a character type, such as magic using priests of Ruornil.

[irdeggman]

Read those lines, people (as you cannot see my lips, anyway): variant classes.

Would tht be like my first post in this thread?

http://www.birthright.net/forums/sho...51&postcount=3


Now this is only for 3.5, and as such really wouldn't help out MatanThunder (and those who only play 2nd ed) - but since the BRCS is 3.5 (again part of that official fan site thing) it works.

While I assume that the project cannot employ them to any truly great extent, we may add some of these in order to provide a variant, say in an article or something (now that would REALLY be my cup of tee: priests of Eric with holy, druidic, and ranger abilities, warrior-paladins of Cuiraécen, magic-using priests of Ruornil, and so on)!

The BRCs is attempting to keep as close to the 2nd ed setting definition material as possible. Which is why only variant paladin classes were written up for those that were specifically allowed in the 2nd ed material.

The insertion of dwarven paladins was to account for the logic that it wasn't setting specific material that forbade them from having paladins but rather 2nd ed as a whole, the same reason dwarves or halflings couldn't be wizards.

3.5 has opened that area up.

What I would like to see, eventually, is a sort of Unearthed Arcana for the BRCS. A book with variants such as those mentioned, but not a part of the core rule set.

Something else I think would be really good, and would best fit in the Atlas material - since they are specifically tied to cultures, would be racial substitution levels (again something only applicable for 3.5). I really find them full of flavor and a way to capture unique aspects of races/cultures.