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05-31-2007, 02:49 AM #1
- Join Date
- Sep 2005
- Redding, California
Can Cerilia handle: The plethora of paladins revisited!!
The plethora of paladins revisited!!
In a recent thread I read some DM’s have taken a view that only the L/G deities (oh and they mention L/N) can have the Paladin Holy Warriors. I am afraid I can’t support that viewpoint. In the game there is room for Paladin/Holy Warriors for every alignment and diety. It makes the class much more available for those who don’t like the alignment based restrictions that the L/G Paladin imposes.
In the games I have run I have allowed PC’s to chose from all alignments to find a Paladin/Holy Warrior (of 1 Faith) to play. The background material comes from the Dragon Magazine July 1980 for the Anti Paladin. (The first to introduce the non L/G type of paladin). It was carried on further in the Dragon Magazine February 1986 with the “A Plethora of Paladins” which supplied a nice set of those Paladin/Holy Warriors of the Faith that I mentioned. (I reworked some of the material to have them capable of using some of the arch typical Paladin Skills like healing touch, holy swords, and special mounts.
Those other paladins are: (L/N Lyan; L/E Illrigger; N/G Myrikhan; T/N Paramander; N/E Arrikhan; C/G Garath; C/N Fantra). Now the forces of the Druids and nature can have a Paladin of their own to defend their belief set.
The idea offers a certain flavor of adventure hooks for the Paladin conflicts that are bound to arise as the Holy Warriors of one deity square off against their nemesis deity’s forces. I has all sorts of campaign implications too if you place the alignment/deity chosen portfolio into play. What will the forces of bane with their Illrigger Paladins come into contact with the forces of Chanteau and her Myikhan Paladins meet. Maybe while the Banites are pillaging a simple farming community!!! (The outrage!!!).
It would be a slugfest and should our party run willy nilly into such a fray the consequences could well embroil them into the situation…..oooooooooo……the painnnnn……the hurting!!!!!
Not a bad idea really. Keeps those goody two shoe paladins in the place, and the next time the paladin sees that glowing blade that seems to resist magic detection that ol’ L/G Paladin might not be so eager to just go over and pick it up. (They always get that mine, mine, mine…..look in their eyes too).
So can your game handle this idea???
05-31-2007, 09:10 AM #2
05-31-2007, 09:49 AM #3
- Join Date
- Nov 2001
- Virginia Beach, Virginia
Would this be like the variant paladins contained in the revised Chap 1 of the BRCS?
Each paladin now has a specific code of conduct that is more alignement (and deity philosophy based) then the generic one in the PHB.
3.5 UA also has paladins of different alignments as a variant too.Duane Eggert
05-31-2007, 11:45 AM #4
Well, I meant just standard paladins with a slight alignment and ethos change don't really work. Obviously, the paladins of Nesirie and Cuiraécen work much better as customised "special agents" of their respective gods, than just ripped-off paladins (hence the custom classes in the BRCS).
That's why I'm in favour of the Unearthed Arcana variants, although I refer to them as the Paladin (LG), Liberator (CG), Infernal (LE) and Havok (CE).
05-31-2007, 01:28 PM #5
fighter/clerics (or cleric/rogues for Eloele or cleric/bards for Laerme or cleric/rangers for Erik or...) -- or the alignment system, for that matter. However, for the sake of discussion, it seems to me that paladins' extreme commitment to a particular moral code lends itself much better to the other four (non-TN) alignments: LN, CN, NG and NE. The reason is that much of the endless wrangling over "is my paladin allowed to do this?" arises from instances where the two alignment halves lead to opposite conclusions -- for example, when the good thing to do and the lawful thing to do are different. However, a paladin of one of the other alignment combinations doesn't have to worry about this: a LN paladin always does the lawful thing, and a NG paladin always does the good thing. That's why I think of those four as more extreme than the mixed four in the corners.
06-01-2007, 08:01 PM #6
I see pleny of space for paladins in most BR campaigns, and in most religions. To make sense of it, one must see religions as embodying theologies, and not look at the construct of alignment, and as has ably been pointed out, one can readily have "lawfull good" religions at odds, and even different sects of the same religion at odds. To give a historical example, the aggressive actions of the Teutonic knights against their fellow catholic Poles from the mid to late 14th century onward.
As to only one palladin per a religion, I don't think this makes much sense in a campaign setting devoted to politics - sure, a galahad is sensible in the artificial construct of Arthurian tales, but had no place in any real medieval kingdom. As to the question of whether there would be enough people to have paladins in any numbers - historically, thousands of European knights and gentlemen, gifted with land, and being on the top of the social structure, set aside their rank and privilege to become Templars, Hospitalers, Schwertbruder, Knights of Santiago, knights of Catelevera (sp?), as well as numbers of other oders of what were essentially monk-knights, under very rigid discipline, and giving up their accustomed comforts.
The game envisions units of paladins of Haelyn, etc, available, on the order of companies of 200 men. Perhaps this can represent 1 knight and 2 brother-seargents, if you are comfortable with lower numbers of actual paladins, but it still allows for hundreds of them. Personally, I am more comfortable with this, as are our players, and it gives a sense of depth to our campaign to have in essence military orders modeled on the same general idea of actual military orders - in the case of the Hospitalers, that survived into the Early MOdern era as a military order, and in their function of running hospitals, to this very day.
06-01-2007, 10:07 PM #7
I'm inclined to see more paladins than Ryan (perhaps this depends what a paladin is), but even I don't see whole units of paladins. (Frankly I generally don't see whole units of fighters either, so that may be telling).
Let's assume the Western Imperial Temple raises an elite unit called Knights of Haelyn. I would imagine perhaps 50 infantry with and average level of 4, or 25 horsemen with an average level of 4. So given the assumption of 25 or 50 men, I'd see maybe 2x Warrior 4, 2x Fighter 4, and one paladin or cleric in an informal leadership role, for groups of five that I would replicate five times for the mounted knights and ten times for the unmounted knights. Two of the informal leaders would instead be formal leaders, perhaps a 6th and a 7th level paladin or cleric (one of each?).
I figure the major temples of Haelyn could each field one unit like this.
06-02-2007, 12:12 AM #8
ability scores that only about one person in a thousand (rolling 3d6 six times) could qualify. If we toss that, then sure, they can be everywhere. However, since I find them both insufferable roleplaying headaches and mechanically unnecessary given free multiclassing, I see no reason at all to keep them in 3rd ed.
06-02-2007, 12:13 AM #9
06-02-2007, 12:53 AM #10
- Join Date
- Sep 2005
- Redding, California
Here is some added examples and information about the idea that I have used during the years.
First my personal experiences with the variation in my time as DM and PC.
I have played an Paramander of Hermes (Greek Mythos). He had a few thiefly powers in addition to the some of the paladin ones. I have also had two players chose to play these paladin variations. One played an Illrigger of Grumsh (Yes an orc Paladin) & the other played a Fantra of Dionyous....He didn't last long.....he liked to worship his god by drinking just a weeeeee bit too much.
Secondly here are how I percieve some of the variations that would occur in the use of the plethora of paladins ideas.
So lets go a step further here with the paladin powers. What powers would be universal, and which would be changed by alignment/faith. (and how).
1) All stats limitations remain the same.
2) Races Allowed could vary due to diety choice....such as the Illrigger of Grumush above.
3) Detect Evil....becomes detect opposite alignments for good/evils and for neutrals they can distinguish both.
4) Save bonus +2 remains
5) Immune to all diseases is a deity based power so they can keep it.
6) Aura's of protection remain vs alignments not their own.
7) Holy swords for all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Turn undead, devils, demons.....the article addresses this, but this could also be where there is a little DM complication.
First the undead turning can be made into controlling by the Evil aligned paladins. For the neutrals there would be NO turning for T/N, and all others neutrals must not be part of a nature patheon as Undead are beyond their understanding to control or affect (druids can't turn undead). Finally with the devil/demon turning there will be a need to review the Outer Planes monster compendiums to find the correct type of creatures that may be turned. Anti paladins would affect some of the aasimar.....others would affect the guardinal, eladrin, rilmani, beatzu....
AS DM you will have to handle the details here.
9) Call on warhorse........this power could be more viably made into warmount....as some races and faiths would have their own version of the faithful mount.
10) Cast priest spells......this is taken care of by the original Dragon Magazine Article.
Now with these said I want to mention a small bit on the variations of personal beliefs....which it does appear that some wish to have limitations int he playing of alignment.
The ideas of faith/belief structures would be well and truely tied into the deity they chose and their alignment. Just because it isn't good or evil doesn't mean that is unswervingly follows a set of beliefs tied to its religious order.
Heck look at real world faiths, and all the varieties of belief systems, now multiply it by the varied levels of personal zeal one carries for such a belief system, and in my lowly opinion you can easilly integrate the militant orders of each faith and alignment to have their cadre of Paladins.
Also for my ol' Paramander....The Paramander above worshipped with a lot of very zealous stealing in the Name of Hermes......and he also enjoyed a game of cards from time to time.....lucky such and such.
Just some ideas on the subject.
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