Elven Druid Poll

[irdeggman]

First off the following contains a lot of excerpts from 'rule books', so apologies in advance Lord R, but not everyone has read them.

From Blood Spawn, seelie faerie (pg 27)

"These creatures {the Sie} were beings of great magic, innate wielders of both sorcery that worked with nature (priestly spells) and sorcery that broke the rules of nature (wizard spells). They cast their spells not by the prayer of priests or the rote memorization of human wizards, but rather the gathering of magical energies (the process yet employed by today’s elves).

The force that split the world into two halves was so strong that it also split the land’s inhabitants, ripping the Sie in twain. Each creature became two separate entities – a faerie (seelie) in the Shadow World and an elf (Sidhe) in Cerilia. The seelie retained control of natural magic and gained power over a new force in the Shadow World: the Seeming. The Sidhe retained control of wizardly magic and became bound to the land itself."

So using the explanations provided here – the Sie were druids and wizards (actually sorcerers per 3.5 definitions). They had no gods and drew their priestly magic (druidic) from nature itself. When the worlds split (pre-Deismaar) the Sie split into two: the faerie (seelie) which dwell in the Shadow World and still wield their druidic powers and the elves which dwell in Cerilia and wield arcane magic.

Player’s Secrets of Tuarhievel pgs 19-20

"The elves of Cerilia do not worship gods. They are aware that the gods of Deismaar existed and that new gods descended from the deities destroyed in that epic battle, but they do not pay homage to them. After their deception and betrayal by Azrai, the Sidhelien have been adamant in their refusal to worship the modern human gods. In this stance, Fhileraene and his predecessors have not differed from the other Sidhelien of Cerilia. . . .

To the elves, spiritual development is the responsibility of the individual. The path an elf takes is a decision that only he or she can make. So strong is this belief that if an elf chooses to worship one of the human gods, so be it. The only restriction placed is that of silence while within elven lands.

The philosophy taught by the taelinri consists of three basic beliefs. First, the elves believe they were formed as the result of the union of the four elements: earth, water, air, and fire. . . .The second aspect of elven philosophy is one that most annoys other races, especially humans. The elves believe that, as a result of their unique creation, they have a greater capacity to perceive the world around them and feel its inherent beauty. The intensity and range of their emotions are the results of both their origins and their immortality. . . .Other races see this as cultural arrogance, but the elves accept it as a natural extension of their origin.

Third, the taelinri help their people achieve a sense of themselves as individuals."

From Blood Spawn pg 5.

"The gods, it is believed, were formed out of the land {when the Shadow World and Aebrynis were one}, and their natures bound them to it."

Looking at all of this in total the pieces can be start to be put together as to why elven druids don't exist in Cerilia (note I said Cerilia - not the Shadow World)

When the Sie split only the faeries retained their ability to work the nature magic of the land (priestly magic). Hence druids (drawing power from nature itself and not a deity) exist in the Shadow World. And since the Sie were the force that tied to the priestly aspect of nature when this force was funneled into the faeries and subsequently trapped in the Shadow World, the only way it could be tapped in Cerillia was through divine intervention (i.e., via a nature god). Now ranger divine magic is still left - with not explanation I would say it is the remnants of the divine priestly aspect that the Sie possessed and was left to those who could 'find and embrace it', but is minor compared to that of druidic magic.

Elves and the old gods are rumored to have been formed in similar ways. There is more verbage in Blood Spawn. The implication is that the gods created humans and of course we know that Moradin created the dwarves. Whereas the elves sprung from the elements (and the split from the Sie).

When looked at as a whole the 2nd ed BR text makes sense and starts to paint a picture of how and why things are the way they are.

[Ming I]

I was also very happy when A_dark pointed out this excerpt in the "What are the consequences of this decision?" thread, but when our group started discussing this, we discovered some inconsistencies.

Although the elves are supposed to have a number of creation myths, all of those myths have one thing in common; the Elves were created from a union of the Four Elements. This explanation of the birth of the Sidhe doesn't mention this at all. This bugged two of the members of our group so much that we all decided that we would mostly ignore the Blood Spawn book.

In our campaign, elves are of the Fey type. Their spirituality has its basis in eastern religion (Chinese mostly), and you could replace all references to mebhaighl, with chi, without anyone at our table even blinking. It gives a more enlightened spiritual awareness to Elves who, in our campaign, are "easterners" thrown into a "western" world.

To be honest, no "ruling" whether it be general consensus or not will put Elven druids into a campaign where the GM doesn't want them there. And no "ruling" will keep Elven druids out of a campaign when the GM does want them there. Open the druid class up in the spirit of 3.x, and have some druids get their powers from Erik and others from nature itself. It really doesn't hurt anything since the ultimate power is still in the GMs hands.

[RaspK_FOG]

MIng I, I am afraid you contradict yourself in the last paragraph of yours:

To be honest, no "ruling" whether it be general consensus or not will put Elven druids into a campaign where the GM doesn't want them there. And no "ruling" will keep Elven druids out of a campaign when the GM does want them there. Open the druid class up in the spirit of 3.x, and have some druids get their powers from Erik and others from nature itself. It really doesn't hurt anything since the ultimate power is still in the GMs hands.

If the final say is in the hands of the DM (/GM/[whatever]), why should the setting be changed as radically as to include something it specifically didn't have but as an exception (the Seelie faerie)? Surely, if a [you know who] wants to run a campaign with elven druids and can do so besides what the book says, he doesn't need to have a book which readilly allows him to do so? Opening any back-doors and creating a few loop-holes? I hope not...

In any case, the Sidhelien, as described in Blood Spawn, were not created by the elements (well, not exactly); if there ever was a being formed by the fusion of all four elements, that would be the Sie, while the Sidhelien are actually incomplete, in the sense they are only half of that! Snobby elves! :P

[Ming I]

I should have replaced "...where the GM..." with "...if an experienced, and/or adventurous GM...".

A lot of inexperienced, and/or less adventurous GMs, tend to be very traditionalistic when it comes to rules. They tend to go along with situations or game mechanics that don't make sense, rather than questioning and/or modifying them until they do. Rather than restricting those GMs with rules based on 2nd edition dogma, why not embrace one of the most prevalent 3.x edition themes; options over restrictions.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Ming I@Mar 24 2004, 07:04 PM
I should have replaced "...where the GM..." with "...if an experienced, and/or adventurous GM...".

A lot of inexperienced, and/or less adventurous GMs, tend to be very traditionalistic when it comes to rules.* They tend to go along with situations or game mechanics that don't make sense, rather than questioning and/or modifying them until they do.* Rather than restricting those GMs with rules based on 2nd edition dogma, why not embrace one of the most prevalent 3.x edition themes; options over restrictions.

Again, I don't see your point on inexperienced DMs working with systems that 'don't make sense'. If the DM thinks a mechanic doesn't make sense or doesn't understand it, then how can he use it in the first place withut developing work arounds?

If instead you mean that only experienced and adventurous DMs attempt to create a setting that makes sense on multiple levels, e.g., religious dogma, relationships between races, explanations of how magic works, etc, that is a different issue and really has nothing to do with developing a ruleset.

And again you seem to be using the 3/3.5 mantra of options over restrictions to replace setting definition. They are completely separate issues. See the pinned topic of setting definition versus color for discussions on this issue.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 4:53 AM





> Again, I don`t see your point on inexperienced DMs working with systems

that `don`t make sense`. If the DM doesn`t think a mechanic doesn`t make

sense or doesn`t understand it, then how can he use it in the first place

withut developing work arounds?



1) because he doesn`t have a wealth of experience to pull a better mechanic

out of his bag of tricks.



2) because he doesn`t realize how it doesn`t make sense, he just knows it

doesn`t feel right, experience provides a sensitivity to what is wrong.



3) he just keeps sticking square pegs in round holes because he can`t find

the square holes



I do think ming I has a point, its unsatisfying for an important question to

just be left with a shrug for the DM to patch.



On the other hand, DM`s need to be willing to come to some agreement about

what the standard is, even if they don`t intend to use it. The question

should be is the material presented sufficiently high quality, not "did I

get my way."



This problem may not be resolvable, but that almost certainly will leave

future inexperienced DM`s (to the extent they they select this as their

setting) to muddle through until they figure out how they want to settle

these questions themselves. That`s a good definition of an unfinished

product.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[irdeggman]

> Again, I don`t see your point on inexperienced DMs working with systems
that `don`t make sense`. If the DM doesn`t think a mechanic doesn`t make
sense or doesn`t understand it, then how can he use it in the first place
withut developing work arounds?

1) because he doesn`t have a wealth of experience to pull a better mechanic
out of his bag of tricks.

Alright, but how does this affect his game? It only means that he hasn&#39;t found a &#39;better&#39; system. The point was that the DM is at a disadvantage when in fact if he is happy or satisfied with the system he is using he is not.

2) because he doesn`t realize how it doesn`t make sense, he just knows it
doesn`t feel right, experience provides a sensitivity to what is wrong.

A legitimate point. But again, just because it doesn&#39;t &#39;feel&#39; right doesn&#39;t really affect how the game is played. Since this was a &#39;rules&#39; subject and not a &#39;color&#39; or &#39;flavor&#39; one.

3) he just keeps sticking square pegs in round holes because he can`t find
the square holes

True enough, but if it is &#39;working&#39;, which Ming I was implying that it doesn&#39;t work, then there is no real problem. It is just an outsider&#39;s view of what someone else (the DM in question) is doing &#39;wrong&#39;.

I do think ming I has a point, its unsatisfying for an important question to
just be left with a shrug for the DM to patch.

On the other hand, DM`s need to be willing to come to some agreement about
what the standard is, even if they don`t intend to use it. The question
should be is the material presented sufficiently high quality, not "did I
get my way."

I think we are on the same page here, roughly. That is that some sort of base-line should be developed that serves as the basis for individual DMs to tweak as they see necessary and not a document that includes every possible variation.

This problem may not be resolvable, but that almost certainly will leave
future inexperienced DM`s (to the extent they they select this as their
setting) to muddle through until they figure out how they want to settle
these questions themselves. That`s a good definition of an unfinished
product.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

And there is the rub. Everyone has their own definition of how much detail is sufficient and what details are more more important than others.

[kgauck]

All three kinds of problems I identified have the game effect of reducing

the amount of fun players might have. Part of what you expect of good

setting materials is that these kinds of contradictions are resolved. They

weren`t resolved in the published setting and its been vexing resolving them

as we try to move into 3e. When a game session is finished and the results

don`t feel right the whole purpose has been undermined. When human druids

seem more at home in the wilderness than the elves because of the powers

granted to them and denied to the elves, players might scratch their heads.

Both the conventional understanding of elves and the BR materials emphasize

the connection of the elves to nature. Players aren`t going to miss this.

The human summons nature`s ally and the elf summons a monster. The druid

speaks with plants and animals to spy on the elves. The elves send out

magical eyes to watch the players (whether casting prying eyes or arcane

eye). Some sidhe strategies may fit their style, such as using charms,

others, using a wall of fire to cover their escape, doesn`t.



This list has suggested a revised spell list, often centering on a nature

school; giving the elves druids; or creating a new class just for the elves

which is obviously arcane, but demonstrates a connection with nature. To my

knowledge no one says, its just great the way it was with human druids and

elf wizards. Playing out a prolonged encounter leaves you with the sense

that elves are magical, but not particularly natural. If this undermines

player enjoyment, and I tend to think it will, its a problem.



Experienced player can anticipate the problem as they read the setting

material and during play can improvise mechanics to provide the desired

feel. With inexperiened DM`s sometimes no one notices until after the game

session. Good materials anticipate these problems by resolving their

contradictions. Thus giving DM`s a gaming experience without pitfalls.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com