Bloodline demographics.

[geeman]

At 04:36 PM 1/31/2004 +0100, irdeggman wrote:



> Unfortunately it never will since the unnotable scions will never be

> mentioned in any source document that can be used as a reference.

>

> That is to say there is no basis to determine the `proper` demographics

> and IMO there is none.



Let me try it this way... if one were going to make an estimate what kind

of distribution do you think there might be? Are there twice as many

tainted scions as minor, twice as many minor as major, etc? Is the

distribution top heavy in that there are more great bloodlines than would

be possible for a standard, curved demographic spread. I`m just curious

what people`s impressions are here.



Or, optionally, if one were going to make up a chart to determine the

bloodline strength of a random NPC scion using numbers that reflected the

actual distribution throughout the population of Cerilia what numbers would

you put in? Assume for the moment that one isn`t constrained by d100 if

one thinks great bloodlines should be 1 in 1,000 or something like that.



Personally, I always like using the halving method when doing such a

distribution because it`s so simple and easily conceptualized. That is,

half the scions in Cerilia are tainted, half the remainder are minor, on up

through all the strengths, but in this case I`m not so sure that works

since it comes out to something like:



Tainted 50%

Minor 25%

Major 15% (rounded up)

Great 7%

True 3%



In some old number crunching using the population levels in the published

materials the population of Cerilia came out to be somewhere in the

neighborhood of 6 or 7 million. (The population probably should be more in

the neighborhood of 15-20 million, but we needn`t worry about that at the

moment.) If one in a thousand Cerilians are scions that would make for

7,000 (rounded up) scions and a couple hundred true bloodlines, and around

500 great bloodlines, so halving alone doesn`t work very well--unless one

sees a lot more beefy bloodlines running around than I normally do.



Gary

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by geeman@Jan 31 2004, 12:50 PM
Let me try it this way... if one were going to make an estimate what kind

of distribution do you think there might be? Are there twice as many

tainted scions as minor, twice as many minor as major, etc? Is the

distribution top heavy in that there are more great bloodlines than would

be possible for a standard, curved demographic spread. I`m just curious

what people`s impressions are here.



Or, optionally, if one were going to make up a chart to determine the

bloodline strength of a random NPC scion using numbers that reflected the

actual distribution throughout the population of Cerilia what numbers would

you put in? Assume for the moment that one isn`t constrained by d100 if

one thinks great bloodlines should be 1 in 1,000 or something like that.



Personally, I always like using the halving method when doing such a

distribution because it`s so simple and easily conceptualized. That is,

half the scions in Cerilia are tainted, half the remainder are minor, on up

through all the strengths, but in this case I`m not so sure that works

since it comes out to something like:



Tainted 50%

Minor 25%

Major 15% (rounded up)

Great 7%

True 3%



In some old number crunching using the population levels in the published

materials the population of Cerilia came out to be somewhere in the

neighborhood of 6 or 7 million. (The population probably should be more in

the neighborhood of 15-20 million, but we needn`t worry about that at the

moment.) If one in a thousand Cerilians are scions that would make for

7,000 (rounded up) scions and a couple hundred true bloodlines, and around

500 great bloodlines, so halving alone doesn`t work very well--unless one

sees a lot more beefy bloodlines running around than I normally do.



Gary

Gary, didn't I give you what I thought could be used? But you rejected it off the cuff and then went to ask for an opinion again? I have no idea what you are trying to do here?

Kenneth's numbers come pretty close to backing up the % I listed from the 2nd ed material and the BRCS, assuming that the unnotables are filled in. My assumption is he started at the top and worked his way down.

Another variant for breakdowns works on the 10 X scale

There are 10 times as many majors as greats
there are 10 times as many minors as majors
there are 10 times as many tainted as minors

[geeman]

At 07:19 PM 1/31/2004 +0100, irdeggman wrote:



>Gary, didn`t I give you what I thought could be used? But you rejected it

>off the cuff and then went to ask for an opinion again? I have no idea

>what you are trying to do here?



What I`m asking here is for a simple percentage. Of the four bloodline

strengths how big a pie slice is each one? I`m not looking for an actual

nose count, just the general break down for the entire population.



If those percentages are based on an overall "population level to scion"

relationship then that`s great, but what`s the relationship and how are the

total percentages being derived? One could backward engineer that method

to come up with a simple percentage if one had all the population levels

and existing scions in a database--but unfortunately nobody`s mentioned any

actual numbers that might be used by that method, just that the

distribution of scions is based on population levels. Because I don`t know

what the relationship is I can`t really use that all by itself without some

sort of indication what the relationship actually is.



>Kenneth`s numbers come pretty close to backing up the % I listed from the

>2nd ed material and the BRCS, assuming that the unnotables are filled in.

>My assumption is he started at the top and worked his way down.



Okay, but as you indicated that data is based on scions published in the BR

materials, which is probably not a representative sample of all scions, and

that`s what I`m curious about--all the scions in Cerilia, not just the ones

described in the published materials.



> Another variant for breakdowns works on the 10 X scale

>

> There are 10 times as many majors as greats

> there are 10 times as many minors as majors

> there are 10 times as many tainted as minors



OK, good. Here we go. If there are 6-7,000 scions in Cerilia that would

make for something like:



Tainted 6,000

Minor 600

Major 60

Great 6



Off the cuff... that seems a little low for major and great bloodlines. I

suspect a straight line relationship (halving or x10) won`t work. It might

require a curve.



Gary

[Solmyr]

I made a similar database some time in the past, mapping out the bloodlines by strength, score, and derivation. My table only includes regents (with a few exceptions), not all scions. Here it is:

True
Azrai
Gorgon	Gorgon's Crown	100
Rhuobhe	Rhuobhe	95
Spider	Spiderfell	95
Leviathan 85
Raven	Ust Atka	77
Serpent	Isle of the Serpent	77
El-Sheighül	Djira	?

Great
Anduiras
Darien Avan	Avanil	70
Caliedhe Dosiere	Imperial City	64
Rhobher Nichaleir	Western Imperial Temple of Haelyn	53
Wulfram Wainier	Promontory (thane)	48
Rhiana Waynmuun	Coullabhie	43
Shaemes Karlburgher	Grevesmühl	40
Basaïa
Thelma est Chauchen	Treucht Chauchen	62
Rhuandice Tuarlachiem	House Tuarlachiem	56
Belinda Ehrsdottal	Treucht	40
Alford Oerwinde	Rheulgard (Edlenna)	39
Markhab el-Aldezar	Ghamoura	37
Gerad ibn Farid el-Arrasi	Ariya	36
Dizel Lafirz	Great Temple of Avani	31
Brenna
Erik Danig	Danigau	54
Llaeddra	Lluabraight	50
Katherine Gauren Danig	Danigau	47
Ludwig von Schaeffen	Berhagen	42
Kurt Warkinde	Stormlord Seerbrand	32
Reynir
Fhileraene	Tuarhievel	55
Masela
Jollid Innkeeper	Breadfruit North-South	38
Vorynn
The Wizard	Five Peaks	45
Marisha Rodelovisk	Rzhlev	38
Morathos Everdark	Bright Ember's Darkness	38
Azrai
Seadrake	Straits of Aerele	80
Vampire	Vampire's Hold	49
Fulda Geissen	Hag	39
Apocalypse 34

Major
Anduiras
Aeric Boeruine	Boeruine	60
Daeric Mhoried	Mhoried	46
Ruarch Rockhammer	Moradin's Forge	41
Kalilah el-Mashil	Khourane	39
Thrakkazz	Blood Skull Barony	38
Liliene Swordwraith	Aerenwe	37
Edvara Garrelban	Burrows	32
Colier Caernson	Dauren	31
Lavalan Briesen	Orthodox Imperial Temple of Haelyn	30
Thuriene Donalls	Talinie	30
Grimm Graybeard	Baruk-Azhik	38
Medhlorie Haensen	Life & Protection of Avanalae	36
Omar el-Zisef	Zikala	36
William Moergen	Osoerde rebels	35
Torele Anviras 35
Harald Khorien	Taeghas	33
Brand Mournsinger	Kiergiyarden	33
Peak Mage 32
Iocas Narvadae	Medecian Way of Avani	30
Anea Kafalie	Dragonsea Temple of Haelyn	29
Hubaere Armiendin	Impregnable Heart of Haelyn	27
Stiele Ghieste 27
Vladimir Nikailov	Kozlovnyy	27
Grovnikk Glössevik	Grovnikken Stohlevvskyy	24
Luther Helmsen	Ruornil's Silver Guard	23
Caelcorwynn 22
Basaïa
Assan ibn Daouta	Elinie	47
Carilon Alam	Alamie	46
Eriene Mierelen	Brosengae	41
Shandare	Zikalan Temple of Avani	39
Kassim el-Dhousai	Min Dhousai	38
Quirad al-Dinn 38
Omar el-Rehal	Docandragh Coster	28
Goulan el-Zesande	Merasaf	27
Kelda Auslawsen	Mountain Brigands	23
Nikoli Brokeslav	Belinik Tsarevic	23
Einar Kuppel	Hjorig	23
Banira el-Reshid	Binsada	22
Alnor	Jankaping	22
Gastus Reigaart 20
Brenna
Heirl Diem	Diemed	42
Mheallie Bireon	Stonecrown Coster	37
Jaison Raenech	Osoerde	36
Ohlaak the Dragon 34
Larra Nielems	Northern Reformed Church of Sarimie	32
Fin Haeaelfyn	Fin's Harvesters	31
Kalien	Endier	30
Ulrich	Kvigmar	30
Tanbeir Lossen	Fürveldt Trepkin	30
Richard Talbehr	Müden	30
Moerele Lannaman	Maesil Shippers	29
Bedoureg 29
Storm Holtson	Stjordvik Traders	28
Colin Shaefpaete	Zweilund Isles	28
Mieles Buired	Suiriene	27
Yousef el-Mesir	Mesire	26
Alaric I	Rohrmarch	26
Elan Fairbairn	Land's Protectorate	26
Sacha Kaptrev	Northern Traders Guild	25
Marlae Roesone	Roesone	24
Darius Asparta	Society of the Serpent	23
Oden	Rohrmarch	22
Reynir
Gavin Tael	Ghoere	49
Fhiele Dhoesone	Dhoesone	46
Sirene Wassercrest	Sailor's Home	36
Suris Enlien	Medoere	32
Günther Brandt	Oaken Grove of Erik	32
Rhynnwyd	Innishiere	29
Bervinig	Halskapa	28
Thorjak the Green 28
Camyrynnyd Bullahrie	Sayer of Coullabhie	28
Darold Wohlkern	Sera's Perfekt Symmetry	27
Lianna Rünjoral 27
Tjorgrim Stonesoul	Khurin-Azur	26
Hruthvar	Svinik	24
Uldviik	Hjolvar	22
Hubrik Raeslund	Red Sword Guarding	22
Niobhe 21
Yolanda Serif	Extraordinary Traders of Turin	20
Dorin Utterlund	Deep Steel Miners	20
Masela
Fulda Spiritwalker	Ela's Quick Fingers	32
Fiona bragh Garradhgynn	Rhuannach	28
Karl Tehrbach	Kirche's Tundarr	26
Kort Lap Tunraus	Nachteben	25
Vorynn
Mhistecai 45
Sword Mage 42
Isaelie	Sielwode	42
Aelies	High Mage	36
Eyeless One 35
Freila	Hogunmark	32
Northri Guthvarsson	Temple of Khurin-Azur	32
Regien 30
Gretta Seligsdotter	Emerald Spiral	28
Richard Kaysun	Rheulgard	28
Caine 27
Corazon bint Rilni	Red Witch	27
Marya Nivernny	Swan Mage	27
Jayim el-Zisef 26
Turanda el-Shaifal	White Sorceress	26
Clumine Dhoesone 25
Hermedhie 24
Dargal	Urga-Zai	24
Albrecht Graben	Grabentod	23
Adara bint Reshoud 22
Dremmin Slyzky	Morjägers	22
Azrai
Basilisk	Basilisk	48
Kraken	Krakennauricht	47
Sphinx	Sphinx	47
Magian	Pipryet	44
Karl Bissel	Massenmarch	39
Drago Malik	One True Church of Vosgaard (Osoerde)	34
Parniel Bowspear	Grabentod	33
Dzintar	Temple of Torazan	28
Rigel min Namal	Nuridan Temple of Sarma	27
El-Sirad	Mour el-Sirad	27
Chernevik	Temple of Might (Kozlovnyy)	25
Tie'skar Graecher	Thurazor	24
Turiye min Saida	Brotherhood of Khet	23
Burzuk the Great	Iron Hand Tribes	22

Minor
Anduiras
Daeric Dhoesone 30
Diirk Watershold	Royal Guild of Baruk-Azhik	29
Bannier Andien	Andien & Sons	21
Ghorien Hiriele	Highland/Overland Traders	20
Entier Gladanil	Cariele	20
Faroud min Gheirut	White Sword of Khirdai	19
Fhylie the Sword	Militant Order of Cuiraecen	18
Onwen Späkhaert	Kiergard	17
Golbrag Untswahl	Kiergard's Broken Stave	16
Pieter Astridsen	Old Father of Forests	15
Delma Fussen	Haelyn's Warriors	13
Delia of Coeranys	Saere Consortium	12
Omadi the Quick	Gold Coast Coster	8
Basaïa
Jihal el-Arrat	Fiery Dawn of Avani	19
Darlure Smoothface	Copper & Coke	19
Taril Herad	Chosen of Khirdai	18
Talis Sheklen	Red Sword Striking	18
Hollisande Burnlaffen	Burnlaffen, Chillde, & Tallrow	17
Arlinda Aldor	Black Ice Traders	17
Alassin el-Maïr	Mairada	16
Kallen Pickbiter	Daikhar Zhigun	16
Brenna
Laela Flaertes	Tuornen	35
Elamien Lamier	Points East Trading Guild	25
Sarand Fasir	Merchant Consortium of Suiriene	20
Beysim el-Duatim	Sendoure	19
Ouisira bint Falih	Djafran Merchant League	19
Volse Redbedtehr	Burgundy Slepsid	19
Frederika Liebshül	Rheulgard	19
Delma Nauren	Grabentod	18
Arron Vaumel	Mieres	17
Jasmina el-Mesir	Temple of the Ancients	17
Varri	Stjordvik	17
Mor Drachen	Drachenward	17
Parnien Anuvier Iniere	Prince's Pride	15
Aswan bin Serhouf	Zhaïnge Merchant Guild	15
Kalilah Sun-Eyes	Darkblades	15
Fulgar the Bold	Rjuvik	14
Ilse Redbedtehr	Burgundy Tolsted	13
Matilend Freiss	Fortune's Forethought	13
Melisande Reaversbane	Müden	13
Ilse Rheiter	Unbrausen Temple of Kirche	12
Reynir
Kiel Adler	Wierech	19
Adaere Doneim	Northern Imports & Exports	17
Caliene Llwelyn 16
Gelda Fresmund	Drachenchauchen	16
Arlando el-Adaba	Red King of Aftane	15
Arien Borthein	Boeruine Trading Guild	14
Ahrek	Coastal Temple of Nesirie	14
Azusena ap-Drin	Wachen an Sonnlacht	10
Masela
Eluvie Cariele	Coeranys	23
Beshid el-Djafara	Djafra	22
Rogr Aglondier	Ilien	21
Siele Ghoried	Spider River Traders	21
Rahil the Falcon 19
Theofold	Brecht Seelundkaufen	18
Mourde Alondir	Erebannien Guild	15
Cedriane Alghasne	Church of the Eternal Seas	15
Mal Puiren	Fingers of Azrai	14
Malik el-Djafara	El-Deyir	12
Vorynn
Arlen Innis 19
Taeric Uluine	Gray Shadow	19
Nashal ibn Remil	Wind Mage	19
Jabil min Rilni	Temple of Rilni	19
Skaviks Redfurrow	Slave Drivers	17
Dashid the Astronomer 16
Chesspola Fröschen	Winter Witches	16
Finn 12
Halimah el-Nasib	Gradny Coster	12
Haswan Mandil	Binsadan Temple of Leira	9
Azrai
Hydra	Harrowmarsh	47
Danita Kusor	Chimaera	38
Lamia	Besaïam	38
Maalvar	Maze of the Minotaur	36
Justina Heulough	Banshegh	33
Manticore	Morrins	31
Siren	Siren's Realm	29
White Witch	White Witch	20
Ghuralli	Giantdowns	19
Ghus Feuerscorn	Yeenoghu's Dark Curse	19
Shalilah min Nurida	Nurida	15
Gabrend Sontrene	Almighty Temple of Belinik (Pipryet)	15
Helmut Gruber	Ghoudaïa Coster	14
Garak zul Turbun	Black Spear Tribes	12

Tainted
Anduiras
Orthien Tane	Southern Anuire Shipping & Imports	8
Basaïa
Rashid min Uighera	Tarvan Waste	11
Teira min Uighera	Raging Heart of Avani	9
Tihara min Buseri	Shield of Halaïa	9
Fazouk Zuarim	Fosslumbren	7
Madina el-Wasir	Djiran Temple of Leira	6
Brenna
Gaelin Thuried	Upper Anuire Traders	12
El-Hadid	Port of Call Exchange	10
Huseti Trosane	Dragonsea Coster	10
Everard von Schleiss	Sera's Blessing	7
Talin bin Shantil	League of Pious Merchants	6
Ailein 5
Reynir
El-Badein 5
Masela

Vorynn
Duriene Peracain	Second Swamp Mage	15
Lakial	Sons of the Serpent	10
Harlmut	King's Men	8
Barouya 7
Godar Thurinson	Mur-Kilad	5
Azrai
Harpy	Isle of the Harpy	18
Boar	Thuringode	16
Wolf	Wolfgaard	11
Kral Two-Toes	Goblins' Triumph	10
Tyrus Yurdvik	Bannalach Spoilers	9
Razzik Fanggrabber	Markazor	2

It is interesting that all the Great Basaia bloodlines seem to be in Brechtur (and one is held by an elf&#33. Half of Great Anduiras bloodlines are not in Anuire (again, interestingly they include an elf and a dwarf). Great Brenna bloodlines at least seem mostly be Brecht, though one is again held by an elf (how come there are no goblins with Great bloodlines?)

[pmcaveney]

My apologies for reviving a dead thread, but I just registered here.

IMHO the central question here - the distribution of bloodline types - has cultural answers, not an absolute one. It depends on how many blooded folks you have and their density. Southern Anuire is densely populated, and marriages to the unblooded are probably uncommon. That would lead to a curve with a swollen belly near the average (probably upper minor would be the peak.) In a frontier region, on the other hand, marriages to commoners would be more frequent and tainted bloodlines would be the most numerous.

Which brings me to a different but related topic - does Anuire have a gentry? What do they do for a living?

I like Birthright, but it always bugged me that the feudal hierarchy wasn't built into the game. In fact fealty is barely mentioned in the original boxed set. I'm perfectly happy tacking rules for vassalage onto the game, but it struck me as odd that they weren't already there.

Obviously we have lots of spare heirs floating around, destabilizing the system - they're a plot necessity anyhow. Seems to me that Cerilia should have a permanent underclass of non-regent blooded folks, though - what's their social role? Is Anuire full of manors and serfs, for example? (I'm sure there is a diversity of types of commoners - probably free farmers in the Brecht domains, etc.) The regency/holding system doesn't require these minor blooded families, so how do they typically put food on the table? Are most knights blooded?

I'm not upset by the omission - I'm a big boy and can narrate my own game without help - but I feel an important untold story here. How do you handle this in your games?

[Birthright-L]

> I`m not upset by the omission - I`m a big boy and can narrate my own

> game without help - but I feel an important untold story here. How do

> you handle this in your games?



My campaign has a little more of a comic book or highlander style feel

to it. I take it as a basic assumption that bloodlines influence

personality and many of the non-regent blooded (and maybe some of the

regent blooded) are still involved in an ages-old divine war that none

of them understand or remember. Bloodtheft, for example, can`t be used

against someone with your derivation. You can stab `em and stab `em,

but it`s only in stabbing a blood enemy that gets you power. (This

solved my scion-breeding problem but unfortunately removed some of the

intrigue.)



I have a whole class of scions of all different races who are still

continuing the war, consolidating power, and developing into powerful

ersheigh and awnsheigh.



And now new bloodlines are being discovered...



--Lord Rahvin

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "pmcaveney" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 3:33 PM





> My apologies for reviving a dead thread, but I just registered here.



Threads never die, they just go into hiding.



> Which brings me to a different but related topic - does Anuire

> have a gentry? What do they do for a living?



I think Anuire (and the rest in their own ways) all have a gentry class. By

gentry, I include not just smaller landlords, but also (in the context of

guilds) burghers, and (in temples) clergy.



> What`s their social role?



They run things on the village, town, and fief level. The game seems to

operate at the level of multi-provinces, so I imagine a single province

level nobility (which the BR materials like to refer to as counts), and

below them a class of knights and other gentry.



The idea I think is key here is that RP and GB are so abstract they can

represent what you want them to. There are are no wrong answers in this

department. If you like a Roman social order, great, feudal, no problem,

Aztec, go for it.



As I see it, much of the BR tables support a feudal interpretation.

Military units are so cheap they certainly seem to be only a small part of

the real cost, as if you were calling up people with military obligations.

The structure of the tax income compared to the huge increases of population

as province levels increase seem to suggest to me that more levels of nobles

have been added between the over-all ruler and the gentry class.



> The regency/holding system doesn`t require these minor blooded families,

> so how do they typically put food on the table?



The regency/holding system doesn`t discuss them, but I don`t find a totally

flat social order, where the ruler directly rules every subject directly

without intermediaries, to be plausible.



> Are most knights blooded?



Not as far as I am concerned.



YMMV, but this is my take on these questions.

Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com