Ship As Army

[kgauck]

I saw that AEG`s Swashbuckler`s setting has an additional book out on ships.

I suspect no d20 setting will do ships as well as a setting based on pirates

and sailors.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[lord_arioch]

Hmm, I've never heard of AEG. I'll agree with you though, considering Birthright is set up to resolve land and naval conflicts quickly.

Just for everyones info I didn't want to try and "re-invent the wheel" when it came to ship design and rules. I thought that with a little brainstorming and modification to the designs and rules we could make naval actions more appealing.

Teloft, I agree, high seaworthiness means less MC and there be a difference between tradesmen and man-o-wars'.

This would probably lead to the Roundship not being the queen of the sea.

[destowe]

Would bunks be included under cargo?

I always thought that the troops were kept in the hold and that took away much cargo space.

Or if kept seperate it could have a large bunk and low cargo, or the opposite. That kept the galleon from holding 3 companies of archers and 6 GB of troops. If the unit of irregulars was used from the crew it became very powerful.

[lord_arioch]

My understanding of the 2nd ed or ad&d rules were that a ship can carry troops and cargo (eg. a galleon can carry 3 units of troops and 6 GB of cargo).
Personally I find it a little hard to believe that packing 600 soldiers onto a ship would not effect its cargo capacity. I thnik if one wants to pack their ship with units of troops (marines, archers, etc) that their cargo capacity be affected.

For BRCS the term bunks means the number of units that can be carried or transported.

So for example. If I had a roundship, I could carry 5 GB of cargo or 2 units of soldiers. (use 2 GB per unit except for cavalry who use 4 GB); therefore, I can carry 1 unit of soldiers and 3 GB of cargo or 2 units of soldiers and 1 GB of cargo.
For a galleon, 3 units of soldiers and no cargo, 2 units and 2 GB of cargo or 1 unit and 4 GB of cargo.

[ConjurerDragon]

lord_arioch schrieb:

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/ind...ST&f=36&t=2107

>

> lord_arioch wrote:

> My understanding of the 2nd ed or ad&d rules were that a ship can carry troops and

cargo (eg. a galleon can carry 3 units of troops and 6 GB of cargo).

> Personally I find it a little hard to believe that packing 600 soldiers onto a ship would

not effect its cargo capacity. I thnik if one wants to pack their ship

with units of troops

(marines, archers, etc) that their cargo capacity be affected.

> For BRCS the term bunks means the number of units that can be carried or transported.

> > So for example. If I had a roundship, I could carry 5 GB of cargo or 2 units of soldiers.

(use 2 GB per unit except for cavalry who use 4 GB); therefore, I can

carry 1 unit of soldiers

and 3 GB of cargo or 2 units of soldiers and 1 GB of cargo.

> For a galleon, 3 units of soldiers and no cargo, 2 units and 2 GB of cargo or 1 unit and 4 GB

of cargo.



I still think that troop and cargo capacity should be separated.

e.g. 2E values from the Seas of Cerilia: Galleon max 3 units of soldiers

(mounted units counted as two units) and cargo capacity of 6 GB



While the Galleon could transport 3 units of soldiers from A to B with

the "Move troops by sea" action, it did not say that it could do the

same for goods. The 6 GB capacity can be transported if the ship runs on

a traderoute a whole domain turn of 3 months, not just once with one

load worth 6 GB.



Most ships are also much faster than that they could only move once

between the start and end of a trade route (30 maritime ares in one

month even if used for a trade route and even faster if not used for a

trade route) and having to assign a ship for the whole of 3 month to a

trade route can only mean that the ships goes back and forth several

times and should be asssumed to be loaded to capacity each time (which

merchant would sail with only a half load if he can avoid it?).



That would make no sense if the ship can carry the whole stuff of 6 GB

at one time, but only if the ships carries much, much more and the

PROFIT of running 3 month between 2 points is 6 GB. The profit of 6 GB

of running goods between 2 points will however be much less than the

actual value of the goods (except if the merchant who runs the trade

route makes 100% profit).



So even in 2E rules a ship could not transport its maximum troop AND

cargo capacity AT ONCE - the cargo capacity could be moved only if

running 3 month on a trade route, and assuming that once in those 3

month the ships carries troops instead of cargo would not disturb the

trade runs so much as that another rule is needed.

bye

Michael

[lord_arioch]

Interesting point. Perhaps I have misinterpreted the ship descriptions in the Naval Battle Rules Accessory. (eg. under the descripton for a roundship is says "Suited for trade or war, roundships can carry two units of troops AND 5 GB of cargo").

Your point though still begs the question, What is the cargo capacity of a roundship?

For some reason (perhaps I've read it somewhere) I equate 1 GB of cargo to 100 tons leading to a roundship being a 500 ton ship. This may sound large but in the Glory days of Spain they had galleons of 1000 tons or more.

One of the methods used (in the old days) to determine a ships tonnage was to take the length x the greatest width x half the greatest width then divide by 94.

therefore a 80' long ship that was 35' wide would be a 521 ton ship (80x35=2800x17.5=49000 divided by 94= 521 tons. This would be a roundship.

A caravel would be perhaps 70' long by 28' wide would be 292 tons. That's not very big.

Based on my above math (please check it to make sure its right ) I think a roundship can carry 5 GB (500 ton) of cargo at once.

[irdeggman]

lord_arioch is correct in the 2nd ed rules it states that most ships (Xebec is an exception) can carry their max troop capacity and their max cargo capacity at once. (See Cities in the Sun)

ConjurerDragon is also correct in the fact that a ship can't do anything other than move actions when used in a trade route.

I think one of the problems here is is trying to define GB capacity in terms of tonnage. In 2nd ed a GB had a vague meaning . It didn't necessarily translate into a set quantity of anything. It was basically dependent on the trade value of goods at the time and between the cultures in the trade route. A trader would typically load up on the items that would have the highest exchange rate with were he was going. So a cargo hold full of wheat would have less value in Anuire than it would in Khinasi. This does cause logic test problems though and I understand the problems with visualizing what is going on. I think I would assume that the cargo capacity probably has less tonnage than logic would dictate since the trade is assumed to encompass the things I mentioned earlier.

In our house rules we used an either or rule for trade capacity and troops. A ship could either carry it's max troops or it's max cargo but not both at the same time. We assumed that some sort of 'conversion' of the ship was made to better accomodate the function at the time.

[RaspK_FOG]

One thing about capacity (tonnage):
==========================

You of course know that some ships were best at carrying cargo, while others were equally good at carrying troops. In any case, however, a ship could transfer both.

Now, what matters is that a ship cannot carry its maximum of both kinds at the same time. The reason lies in the fact that according to the type of vessel, the maximum capacity carried varied according to the ships needs. In other words, it would be logical to say that the fewer men you had on board, the more space you also had, and vice versa. On the other hand, you could never have one but not the other (sailors should count as troops, as they were always the ones fighting on board of ships)...

As such, I think it is more logical to assume that ships actually have a balance when it comes to cargo vs. troops: 10% C to 90% T, 25% C to 75% T, 50% C to 50% T, and so on. Or something similar, but you get what I mean.

[teloft]

about cargo and ships.

I remember a port in england where there is lot of foreign stones. the reason:

this was an export harbour. the ships came there and filled there ships with cargo. then thay unloaded there cargo, but then thay had to weighten there ships to be able to sail back. And did so by filling it with rocks.

So I would say thet a ship hasto have a sertain amount of cargo, no mater if it is worthless, in order to max there sea worthyness.

[lord_arioch]

I thought of revamping the whole ship system but decided on amending certain stats.

Units Cost Sail MC Seaw Cargo Bunks Hits Defence
Caravel 6 3 B +6 3 1 2 14
Coaster 2 4 A +5 1 0 1 10
Cog 5 2 C +7 3 1 2 14
Dhoura 4 3 B +6 2 1 2 14
Dhow 2 4 A +4 1 0 1 10
Drakkar 8 1 D(2) +3 1 1 2 14
Galleon 15 3 E +5 6 3 4 16
Galley 8 2 B(2) +2 1 1 2 12
Keelboat 1 2 C(1) 0 1 0 1 8
Knarr 6 2 C(1) +6 2 1 2 14
Longship 3 2 C(2) +4 1 1 1 12
Roundship12 3 E +8 5 2 3 16
Xebec 17 3 B +5 2 2 3 14

I reduced sail speed as a lower number would help with ship to ship combat (eg. Roundship moves 3 spaces).
I did not list the Missile rating or the Boarding rating.

As a Galley is a poor sailor I made its seaworthiness rating only +2. Also it cannot carry much cargo, low cargo.

The Xebec is now a very maneuverable ship compared to the galleon and roundship.


Hopefully my chart is readable this time.