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Thread: Ship As Army

  1. #1
    Administrator Arius Vistoon's Avatar
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    Why mechanism of ship is different that army ?

    In mechanism of army, regent can choose trainer/experience of army, armor of army and so on...
    unfortunalitely, in ship, ther are no of these possibilities.

    If anybody is interesting for i look these rules, i can do that.
    ( but my english is very pityful )

  2. #2
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    If you can find my thread on Wondrous Structures in hte Royal Library (about 1-2 months old now), I posted stats for a Naval Academy that would allow for the advancesa to create such things, based on the assumption that Cerilian shipbuilding, by default, was pretty uninventive and stagnant, and thus would require something like the (large) investment into a NAval Academy to advance the naval sciences.

    -Osprey

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    Administrator Arius Vistoon's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Osprey@Nov 21 2003, 08:56 PM
    If you can find my thread on Wondrous Structures in hte Royal Library (about 1-2 months old now), I posted stats for a Naval Academy that would allow for the advancesa to create such things, based on the assumption that Cerilian shipbuilding, by default, was pretty uninventive and stagnant, and thus would require something like the (large) investment into a NAval Academy to advance the naval sciences.

    -Osprey
    Yes, i'm interresting.
    I have searched this but i don't find that.
    if you are a copy of that, i'm interesting

  4. #4
    Administrator Arius Vistoon's Avatar
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    experimentally
    i propose this draft :

  5. #5
    Senior Member teloft's Avatar
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    I been thinking thet one unit of ship is not one ship but a unit of ships, therefore you no longer need to fit 3 army units with horses on one small rafting boat. But insted you have many rafting boats. Fleet manuvering insted of ship sailing.

    any comments on this thougth.


    the battlefeal can consist of deep water and shallow water, and perhaps costline restricting manuvering.

    a ship has a face, and it needs to spend movement turning, usualy with oars.

    ship would not have moral, but the units mounted on the ships.

    if ship fails to turn and sail away when routed, the sailors and figthingunits will jump into the sea if thay can swim to land.

    you can train the sailing crue, gaing more speed with ours, or training them to use the ram.


    Ships made for Oceangoing and long voage over large body of sea for days / weeks are wery hard to turn, thay will stay on course what ever whill hapen. and therefore thay are not as good in war / shallow waters or in costal manuvering. cost lotes of movement to turn (for thets the idee if you wana cross long distences)

    I say the tecnology sould be based on the craftsmens/Engeneers knowledge

    So you could buil any cind of ship as long as you import the knowlege and craft.

    there are 2 cinds of missile weapons on ships. normal arrow fierd from a bow. and then normal sige weapons mounted on the boat. the normal sige weapons follow any sige rules. exept for begin mounted on a ship.

    then any ship is considerd a floating fortress.



    the dragons of the vikings had a special qualety reacently begin discoverd.
    the part in fron of the ship maid bubles in the ocean, making it so much softer, and the water siply gives way for the ship before it arives, in a count in perhaps 2" .. This technology is now begin re-developed for fast submarine going, traveling underwater in a air boble.

    The result begin thet the force of the water redusing the speed of the ship is su much less. alowing the ship to go so much faster.

    when the large frigates were build, and loaded with cannons, thay no longer had this knowlege. and if thay did, it would have been hell to iplement it in such a large ship.

  6. #6
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 10:29 PM 11/27/2003 +0100, teloft wrote:



    > I been thinking thet one unit of ship is not one ship but a unit of

    > ships, therefore you no longer need to fit 3 army units with horses on

    > one small rafting boat. But insted you have many rafting boats.

    > :) Fleet manuvering insted of ship sailing.

    >

    > any comments on this thougth.



    That`s the way I`ve been going. One "unit" equals whatever has a value at

    the "battle" level of play. To illustrate the progression there is the

    standard encounter/adventure level of play in which a "unit" is an

    individual character/creature. The skirmish level at which units are an

    amalgamation of individuals (eight CR 1 characters can be combined to

    create the equivalent of a single CR 4 unit with appropriate size, hit

    point, BAB increases, etc.) While a "unit" at the battle level is

    approximately 50 soldiers, who together equate to a single "hit" of a

    "company" at what is in BR the warcard level of combat.



    > the battlefeal can consist of deep water and shallow water, and perhaps

    > costline restricting manuvering.



    Generally I think this is just a matter of terrain with various effects at

    the company level needed to deal with the terrain. Units with "marine"

    training/equipment (like vikings, Muden marines or something similar) can

    operate at a penalty in shallow water while others would lose

    attacks. Those with "ship troop/boarder" training might have small rafts

    or otherwise be trained at shipboarding tactics (swinging from lines, using

    a corvis, swimming with knives in their teeth, etc.) might have a similar

    penalty in deep water, but that is better than other units that are unable

    to attack or even traverse that type of "terrain."



    > a ship has a face, and it needs to spend movement turning, usualy with oars.



    Companies need facing IMO at the "warcard" level. In fact, I`m starting to

    lean towards using facing at the adventure level too, though I`ve not had a

    chance to work this out yet.



    > ship would not have moral, but the units mounted on the ships.

    >

    > if ship fails to turn and sail away when routed, the sailors and

    > figthingunits will jump into the sea if thay can swim to land.

    >

    > you can train the sailing crue, gaing more speed with ours, or training

    > them to use the ram.



    So the "ship" is the ship and its crew, right? As a separate entity from

    troops carried on it.



    > Ships made for Oceangoing and long voage over large body of sea for days

    > / weeks are wery hard to turn, thay will stay on course what ever whill

    > hapen. and therefore thay are not as good in war / shallow waters or in

    > costal manuvering. cost lotes of movement to turn (for thets the idee if

    > you wana cross long distences)



    When it comes to the specifics movement for ships the guy whose done the

    best job I`ve seen is the Septentrionalis D20 setting. Definitely worth a

    look.



    > I say the tecnology sould be based on the craftsmens/Engeneers knowledge

    >

    > So you could buil any cind of ship as long as you import the knowlege

    > and craft.



    I think it warrants its own skill. Profession, Shipbuilder. A person with

    that skill can plan the ship (come up with a blueprint) and act as foreman

    for the dozens of craftsmen needed to build a ship ranging from carpenters

    to blacksmiths, people to do the rigging to those who weave and repair sails.



    > there are 2 cinds of missile weapons on ships. normal arrow fierd from a

    > bow. and then normal sige weapons mounted on the boat. the normal sige

    > weapons follow any sige rules. exept for begin mounted on a ship.

    >

    > then any ship is considerd a floating fortress.



    Any particular ideas on how much like a fortress it is? Does it give

    defensive bonuses to units on it? Do attackers have to "reduce" the ship`s

    defensive like a castle?



    > the dragons of the vikings had a special qualety reacently begin discoverd.

    > the part in fron of the ship maid bubles in the ocean, making it so much

    > softer, and the water siply gives way for the ship before it arives, in a

    > count in perhaps 2" .. This technology is now begin re-developed

    > for fast submarine going, traveling underwater in a air boble.



    Interesting. Do you have references that I could check out?



    Gary

  7. #7
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    teloft schrieb:

    > This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

    > You can view the entire thread at:

    > http://www.birthright.net/forums/ind...ST&f=36&t=2107

    >

    > teloft wrote:

    ...

    > the battlefeal can consist of deep water and shallow water, and perhaps costline restricting

    manuvering.



    Definitely coastline. As there are rivergoing ships there can be

    shipbattles in rivers - effectively coastline on both sides, and perhaps

    even only 1 line of deep water in the middle and only shallow water at

    the sides ;-)



    Which means that army units at the beach/besides the river could also

    take part in a ship battle very close to land...





    > a ship has a face, and it needs to spend movement turning, usualy with oars.



    The "facing" of the ship needs not only to be valued for the direction

    in which it is going and perhaps how far it can turn around but also

    where the weapons are aimed.



    For a cannon-armed ship it is clear that the cannons are concentrated to

    the left and right of the ship and that to the front and aft perhaps

    only one small cannon is ready to fire, if any. But where are the

    weapons of a non-cannon-ship able to fire?





    > ship would not have moral, but the units mounted on the ships.

    > > if ship fails to turn and sail away when routed, the sailors and figthingunits will jump

    into the sea if thay can swim to land.



    Mmmh, I don´t know how much truth this has, but there is a saying that

    in old times they prefered men who could not swim for the navy as they

    would defend their ship to the last men... ;-)



    And from some historical novels I always remember that even the ships of

    the royal british navy had large numbers of crew "pressed" into service,

    "shanghait" (whatever that means in english, it is used in german for

    men who are for example made drunk in a tavern and then awake on board

    of a ship on sea where they are part of the crew for the next years...).



    Those men should not have a morale to fight at all, but if they can´t

    swim? In D&D terms how many Commoners/Experts on ships would have ranks

    in swim - especially if most of them might not have intended to serve on

    a ship at all?





    > you can train the sailing crue, gaing more speed with ours, or training them to use the ram.



    Rams with sailing ships make only sense if they also have oars of

    sufficient number to back them up from the crash before they go down

    with the other ship - I do not think it possible that a pure sailing

    ship can maneuver into one direction real fast to ram another ship and

    then quickly go in the opposite direction to prevent being locked into

    the other ship and sink themselves.





    > Ships made for Oceangoing and long voage over large body of sea for days / weeks are wery

    hard to turn, thay will stay on course what ever whill hapen. and

    therefore thay are not as

    good in war / shallow waters or in costal manuvering. cost lotes of

    movement to turn (for thets

    the idee if you wana cross long distences)



    A small shallow riverboat is certainly likelier to turn faster than a

    very big warship with a deep keel - but on the ocan the small

    fastturning riverboat might be overturned by some higher waves alone and

    sink without even seeing combat.



    > I say the tecnology sould be based on the craftsmens/Engeneers knowledge

    > So you could buil any cind of ship as long as you import the knowlege and craft.



    Do not forget roleplaying over the rules - how many, many years did it

    take before the spanish copied the clearly more maneuverable ships of

    the english fleet and their privateers and ceased to use big fat

    unmaneuverable galleons? There is more than "bring me one Khinasi

    shipbuilder, from now on we build the same ships and become a naval

    empire..."

    bye

    Michael

  8. #8
    Member lord_arioch's Avatar
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    This is exactly what I wanted to get at. A modification of the ships and the rules that govern ships abilities.
    I like the step building process (eg. decide size, then Tech, then merchantman or man-o-war. Then add other features.
    Some of the ships stats have to be explained though.
    The BRCS playtest has a Mv and a sail stat for ships. Whats the difference? The MC and seaworthiness stats are gone, I think they should be brought back.
    So the stats would be:
    Class, region, seaworthiness, cargo, bunks, melee, missle, Def, Hits, MC, Spd and Cost.
    To each, his own.

  9. #9
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Look at the rules for ships in AEG`s Swashbucklers. Ships have levels and

    feats, though they can`t gain experience, it effects the cost of the ship at

    construction, though they could be refit. Take the rjurik longship.



    Base Cost 15,000 gp

    Cost per additional level 1,500 gp

    Length 60 ft

    Width 15 ft

    Draft 1

    Masts: 1 (30 hp)

    Oars: 60

    Movement rate: 3

    Cargo: 3 tons

    Rudder: 1, 2 with sail

    Crew: 70

    Armor Class 12

    Hull Hardness: 5

    Hit Points: 900

    Starting Feats: Oars



    Lets say this is a raiding ship. I could pay 4,500 gp to add an extra mast

    (speed increases to 4), install a wide rudder (reducing then number of hexes

    I must traverse between turns by -1 to 0), and design it with a slight draft

    (reducing my draft rating to 0, so I can beach her). Each of these is a

    ship`s feat, this is a level three ship.



    Alternatly, I mught come into contact with a longship designed for war.

    Also a level 3 warship, it might have masterful construction (+10% more

    hitpoints), extra crew (+10% more men), and an extended keel (+1 to draft,

    and +2 to all saves made against capsizing).



    The standard ships listed includes rafts, rowboats, barges, longships,

    galleys, small merchantmen, large merchantmen, frigates, and ships of the

    line. But its easy to design new ships since all the stats are out there to

    fiddle with.



    Kenneth Gauck

    kgauck@mchsi.com

  10. #10
    Member lord_arioch's Avatar
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    That's an interesting ship building system. For D20 and their feat rules it sounds quite plausable.

    I did a little modification to Vistoons work. Unfortunately trying to cut and paste doesn&#39;t work well. <_<

    I broke down the Class to
    Light- under 100 and 100 ton
    Moderate - 200 to 400 ton
    Heavy- 500 to 600 ton

    The next step is Tech level using the three proposed by Vistoon (poor, avge and advanced)

    Then the Ships purpose
    Merchantman or Man o war.

    Once I learn how to paste properly I&#39;ll list if here for comparison purposes.
    To each, his own.

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