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Thread: Realm Efficiency.
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05-30-2002, 03:51 PM #1
In the current BR realm rules there`s no limit to the size of a realm that
a regent can rule. Bloodline strength, of course, limits the maximum
amount of RP that can be collected without resorting to vassals, but
technically there`s no reason why one regent couldn`t rule every province
and holding in Cerilia--and all the ones on Aduria too, for that matter.
It`s debatable whether or not any of the individual realms in the BR
materials rise to the level that the civil governments would run into the
kinds of inefficiencies of large empires, but in the history of Cerilia
(particularly Anuire) there certainly have been larger realms that might
have been much less efficient.
I know this is a rather vague idea, but does anyone have any thoughts on
how efficiency and size might affect the realm level of play?
Gary
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05-30-2002, 04:29 PM #2
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this is something i too am looking into for my new domain system
[http://www.theoretic.com/?Domains]. I would be very interested in ideas
here, since I don`t have any of my own yet :)
Gary wrote:
> In the current BR realm rules there`s no limit to the size of a realm that
> a regent can rule. Bloodline strength, of course, limits the maximum
> amount of RP that can be collected without resorting to vassals, but
> technically there`s no reason why one regent couldn`t rule every province
> and holding in Cerilia--and all the ones on Aduria too, for that matter.
>
> It`s debatable whether or not any of the individual realms in the BR
> materials rise to the level that the civil governments would run into the
> kinds of inefficiencies of large empires, but in the history of Cerilia
> (particularly Anuire) there certainly have been larger realms that might
> have been much less efficient.
>
> I know this is a rather vague idea, but does anyone have any thoughts on
> how efficiency and size might affect the realm level of play?
>
> Gary
>
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05-30-2002, 04:58 PM #3
I doubt very much that if the Empire of Anuire were re-constituted, there
would only be one random event every turn. Random events happen at the
barony/duchy level. Grow too big and the random events alone will begin to
sap your strength.
Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com
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05-30-2002, 05:07 PM #4
Take the Gorgon for example; I`m pretty certain he`s swamped in matters
of civil unrest, rebellious provinces, earthquakes, flood and famine and
interracial strife...
Bet he`s just yearning for more blooded lieutenants :-)
-----Original Message-----
From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion
[mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On Behalf Of Kenneth Gauck
Sent: 30. mai 2002 18:55
To: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
Subject: Re: Realm Efficiency.
I doubt very much that if the Empire of Anuire were re-constituted,
there
would only be one random event every turn. Random events happen at the
barony/duchy level. Grow too big and the random events alone will begin
to
sap your strength.
Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com
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05-30-2002, 05:37 PM #5
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On Thu, 30 May 2002, Gary wrote:
> In the current BR realm rules there`s no limit to the size of a realm that
> a regent can rule. Bloodline strength, of course, limits the maximum
> amount of RP that can be collected without resorting to vassals, but
> technically there`s no reason why one regent couldn`t rule every province
> and holding in Cerilia--and all the ones on Aduria too, for that matter.
>
> It`s debatable whether or not any of the individual realms in the BR
> materials rise to the level that the civil governments would run into the
> kinds of inefficiencies of large empires, but in the history of Cerilia
> (particularly Anuire) there certainly have been larger realms that might
> have been much less efficient.
>
> I know this is a rather vague idea, but does anyone have any thoughts on
> how efficiency and size might affect the realm level of play?
For acting in a province, for every province it is away from the capitol,
add an extra RP cost to the action. If you want to be really mean, an
extra GB too. So every action in Ilien costs as normal. In Medoere,
since both non-capitol provinces there border the capitol, actions will
often cost an extra RP.
Avanil, on the other hand, has its capitol in the south. Provinces in the
north of that realm are less subject to the rule of Daulton, and you`ll
notice that Avanil lost three provinces to the closer duke in Tuornen (ne
Alamie) at some point.
Just I idea I came up with a while ago.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu
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05-30-2002, 05:37 PM #6
At 11:55 AM 5/30/2002 -0500, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
>I doubt very much that if the Empire of Anuire were re-constituted, there
>would only be one random event every turn. Random events happen at the
>barony/duchy level. Grow too big and the random events alone will begin
>to sap your strength.
Actually, random events occur at the realm level, no matter what the size
of the realm, just so long as it is an "active domain" whatever that
means. (A regent with anything over a level 0 holding from what I can
tell....) Even then only one such random event occurs per domain
turn. Vassals who control a realm, it`s true, would also have their own
random events to deal with, but from the Liege POV the Vassal would
probably be expected to deal with his own random events without much or any
assistance.
Random events _should_ be based more on the size of the realm, of
course. Very large realms should be more likely to get two or more random
events per domain turn, and substantially smaller realms should be more
likely to have none, but I don`t think the number of random events alone
entirely expresses the problems with efficiency in large realms. The
amount of revenue collected by provinces or holdings doesn`t decrease at
all no matter how large and relatively inefficient the government becomes,
nor are the costs for performing activities in larger realms that a smaller
realm can perform more easily and efficiently.
At 12:19 PM 5/30/2002 -0400, Adam Theo wrote:
>this is something i too am looking into for my new domain system
>[http://www.theoretic.com/?Domains]. I would be very interested in ideas
>here, since I don`t have any of my own yet :)
From a game mechanical perspective, I have a couple of thoughts.
1. Inefficiency should kick in for the provinces and holdings that exceed
the regent`s bloodline strength score. That is, if King Bobo has a BSS of
48, inefficiency should start creeping in at some point after he controls
49+ levels of provinces and/or holdings. One could make an argument that
bloodline strength score should have nothing to do with relative
efficiency, but my take on this is that
A. Bloodline is the basis of the BR system, and should be supported in
as many additional ways as possible.
B. Many of the existing realms in the published materials seem to
collect the maximum amount of regency possible given the bloodline strength
of the regent who controls them. That`s not necessarily a reason to go
with such a ruling--one shouldn`t necessarily come up with guidelines to
justify things retroactively, IMO. It`s nice when they do justify such
things, but that`s not really a reason to come up with a rule.
2. Inefficiency might influence several things at the realm level. As
noted above, it might affect he amount of revenue collected or the number
of random events might be greatly increased, but a large, inefficient realm
might also suffer any of the following consequences:
A. The base RP/GB cost of domain actions could go up.
B. The time required to perform domain actions or the time in which
they take effect could increase.
C. The difficulty of various domain actions could go up.
D. Normally "free" actions could be lost. (An emperor might be
prevented from performing Adventure actions.)
E. The types of domain actions a regent can perform could be
limited. (Very large realms might no longer be able to Agitate.)
F. Various domain actions might not be able to be performed as realm
actions, or there may be come limit place on the extent to which a realm
action can function. (A regent might not be able to Rule more levels of
holdings as a realm action than he has bloodline strength.)
G. Maintenance costs for the realm, castles, military units, ships,
etc. could rise.
H. The stats of various military units might decrease.
I. The amount of RP that a regent can spend to assure the success of an
action or in a RP bidding war with another regent might be limited.
I don`t much like several of those possibilities, but others I think make
some sense.
Gary
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05-30-2002, 05:37 PM #7
I don`t see the Empire of Anuire being directly ruled by the Emperor since
that is virtually impossible. Therefore he takes on what his abilities
(bloodline str) can handle and delegates the other holdings and lands to
subjects who swear fealty to him. Of course this is self explanatory but if
a regent decided to take more holdings than his bld str could maintain he
places himself at risk of loss. Ghoere is an example of this sure his realm
is powerful and militant but it is spread thin if a contest war plagued him
from all sides. The efficiency of a Regents RP takes care of itself in the
due course of actions in a campaign.
Vassals are a good and bad thing, however since the game is already complex
running domain functions all the way down to the lords and knights of law
holdings would defeat the funtionality of the game (needn`t be said it is so
obvious). Thus we are given regents or minor Kings who rule their own
little domains of various types. These Kings are the sovereign level of the
domain where the said random actions affect and can be run in a somewhat
simple game system. These sovereigns act as the default domain caretaker
for all the peerage under them. The domain maintenance and court cost are
what the regent pays back to the nobles of his land since they divert
regency and taxes to him. Sovereigns are the characters where the domain
level of the game functions to keep things simple. However the peerage can
always play a bigger role at any time (seperatist movements and rebellions).
As far as this goes each domain is sovereign to those unnamed individuals
serving under it for functionality purpose. This is where the bld str
importance is evident since the strength of the bloodline is basically a
rating of how big of a realm a character can be a sovereign over
(efficiently).
When dealing with sovereign vassals such as with an empire scale mere
diplomatic arrangements of tribute and so on would act as the efficiency for
the empire. No empire existed without lieutenants, governors, vassals and
so on to keep the local populace in line. (or Moffs depending what galaxy
you are from) Therefore no emperor truly rules directly, and if he does he
is a fool cause his domain will be stagnant. (this is anuire not persia)
A good question is where do the random events occur? Certainly if a
character ruled directly over all cerilia there would be more than one roll
for random evens. If not then direct rule would prove more profitable. I
do think a sovereign level (regent) would maintain a good guide for any DM
and random events. I would also suggest that a direct ruling emperor would
have to hold against peerage trying random events of their own since his
highly central rule is easily weakened by just a few individuals.
Perhaps that is why a PC (someone who adventures and understands teamwork)
is recommended to become the next emperor. Not some megalomaniac who thinks
he is the only one fit to rule.
ciao,
Paul
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with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.One law, One court, One allied people, One coin, and one tax, is what I shall bring to Cerilia.
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05-30-2002, 06:31 PM #8
Never mind, Gary. Sorry to have bothered.
Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com
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05-30-2002, 06:49 PM #9
At 01:34 PM 5/30/2002 -0400, Daniel McSorley wrote:
> > In the current BR realm rules there`s no limit to the size of a realm that
> > a regent can rule. Bloodline strength, of course, limits the maximum
> > amount of RP that can be collected without resorting to vassals, but
> > technically there`s no reason why one regent couldn`t rule every province
> > and holding in Cerilia--and all the ones on Aduria too, for that matter.
> >
> > I know this is a rather vague idea, but does anyone have any thoughts on
> > how efficiency and size might affect the realm level of play?
>
>For acting in a province, for every province it is away from the capitol,
>add an extra RP cost to the action. If you want to be really mean, an
>extra GB too. So every action in Ilien costs as normal. In Medoere,
>since both non-capitol provinces there border the capitol, actions will
>often cost an extra RP.
That`s interesting. I did a similar thing for various domain actions but
limited it to the provinces in which the regent had some sort of control;
he controlled the province, a holding or had a ley line/trade route to
it. The costs of performing certain domain actions (most notably
Espionage) increased by +1 RP and +1GB per province outside of the regent`s
control.
Do you use a Create Capitol action in order to designate the "central
location" of the realm for the purpose of the costs you expressed
above? Does the capitol have other effects?
Gary
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05-30-2002, 07:38 PM #10
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> I know this is a rather vague idea, but does anyone have any thoughts on
> how efficiency and size might affect the realm level of play?
I agree with Kenneth`s comment that random events should begin to
overwhelm, since they really should be handled as "one event per N
provinces or holdings" rather than "one event per regent". There is also
the increased maintenance cost per holding chart; it does get linear above
100 holdings, but one can fit a simple power-law function to the rest of
the table to extrapolate a curve which shows that once you get too many
holdings, they start to cost you more in maintenance than you make in
revenue (I did this once, but I don`t have in in front of me -- I`ll try
to remember to look tonight). One change you could consider is limiting
realm actions to cover at most some number of provinces; one way to do
this, and bleed off some of the extra RP and GB as well, is say that it
costs a cumulative +1 RP and/or GB per holding in the action. Thus, to
Rule up five temple holdings in one action would cost an additional 10
(0+1+2+3+4) RP/GB/both beyond the basic cost; this means that ruling up
dozens of holdings in one action would suddenly become much less
attractive, and make the regent much more vulnerable to dozens of separate
Contests from a bunch of smaller regents.
Ryan Caveney
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