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  1. #1
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    In the current BR realm rules there`s no limit to the size of a realm that
    a regent can rule. Bloodline strength, of course, limits the maximum
    amount of RP that can be collected without resorting to vassals, but
    technically there`s no reason why one regent couldn`t rule every province
    and holding in Cerilia--and all the ones on Aduria too, for that matter.

    It`s debatable whether or not any of the individual realms in the BR
    materials rise to the level that the civil governments would run into the
    kinds of inefficiencies of large empires, but in the history of Cerilia
    (particularly Anuire) there certainly have been larger realms that might
    have been much less efficient.

    I know this is a rather vague idea, but does anyone have any thoughts on
    how efficiency and size might affect the realm level of play?

    Gary

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  2. #2
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    this is something i too am looking into for my new domain system
    [http://www.theoretic.com/?Domains]. I would be very interested in ideas
    here, since I don`t have any of my own yet :)

    Gary wrote:
    > In the current BR realm rules there`s no limit to the size of a realm that
    > a regent can rule. Bloodline strength, of course, limits the maximum
    > amount of RP that can be collected without resorting to vassals, but
    > technically there`s no reason why one regent couldn`t rule every province
    > and holding in Cerilia--and all the ones on Aduria too, for that matter.
    >
    > It`s debatable whether or not any of the individual realms in the BR
    > materials rise to the level that the civil governments would run into the
    > kinds of inefficiencies of large empires, but in the history of Cerilia
    > (particularly Anuire) there certainly have been larger realms that might
    > have been much less efficient.
    >
    > I know this is a rather vague idea, but does anyone have any thoughts on
    > how efficiency and size might affect the realm level of play?
    >
    > Gary
    >
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    --
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    // Email & Jabber: theo@theoretic.com
    // (Boycotting AOL, therefore no AIM or ICQ)
    =//===== Theoretic Solutions: http://www.theoretic.com
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    || "The Coolest IM on the Planet"
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    || Buddhist Political Philosopher."

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  3. #3
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    I doubt very much that if the Empire of Anuire were re-constituted, there
    would only be one random event every turn. Random events happen at the
    barony/duchy level. Grow too big and the random events alone will begin to
    sap your strength.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  4. #4
    Administrator Green Knight's Avatar
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    Take the Gorgon for example; I`m pretty certain he`s swamped in matters
    of civil unrest, rebellious provinces, earthquakes, flood and famine and
    interracial strife...

    Bet he`s just yearning for more blooded lieutenants :-)

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion
    [mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On Behalf Of Kenneth Gauck
    Sent: 30. mai 2002 18:55
    To: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
    Subject: Re: Realm Efficiency.

    I doubt very much that if the Empire of Anuire were re-constituted,
    there
    would only be one random event every turn. Random events happen at the
    barony/duchy level. Grow too big and the random events alone will begin
    to
    sap your strength.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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    Cheers
    Bjørn
    DM of Ruins of Empire II PbeM

  5. #5
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    On Thu, 30 May 2002, Gary wrote:
    > In the current BR realm rules there`s no limit to the size of a realm that
    > a regent can rule. Bloodline strength, of course, limits the maximum
    > amount of RP that can be collected without resorting to vassals, but
    > technically there`s no reason why one regent couldn`t rule every province
    > and holding in Cerilia--and all the ones on Aduria too, for that matter.
    >
    > It`s debatable whether or not any of the individual realms in the BR
    > materials rise to the level that the civil governments would run into the
    > kinds of inefficiencies of large empires, but in the history of Cerilia
    > (particularly Anuire) there certainly have been larger realms that might
    > have been much less efficient.
    >
    > I know this is a rather vague idea, but does anyone have any thoughts on
    > how efficiency and size might affect the realm level of play?

    For acting in a province, for every province it is away from the capitol,
    add an extra RP cost to the action. If you want to be really mean, an
    extra GB too. So every action in Ilien costs as normal. In Medoere,
    since both non-capitol provinces there border the capitol, actions will
    often cost an extra RP.

    Avanil, on the other hand, has its capitol in the south. Provinces in the
    north of that realm are less subject to the rule of Daulton, and you`ll
    notice that Avanil lost three provinces to the closer duke in Tuornen (ne
    Alamie) at some point.

    Just I idea I came up with a while ago.
    --
    Communication is possible only between equals.
    Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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  6. #6
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 11:55 AM 5/30/2002 -0500, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

    >I doubt very much that if the Empire of Anuire were re-constituted, there
    >would only be one random event every turn. Random events happen at the
    >barony/duchy level. Grow too big and the random events alone will begin
    >to sap your strength.

    Actually, random events occur at the realm level, no matter what the size
    of the realm, just so long as it is an "active domain" whatever that
    means. (A regent with anything over a level 0 holding from what I can
    tell....) Even then only one such random event occurs per domain
    turn. Vassals who control a realm, it`s true, would also have their own
    random events to deal with, but from the Liege POV the Vassal would
    probably be expected to deal with his own random events without much or any
    assistance.

    Random events _should_ be based more on the size of the realm, of
    course. Very large realms should be more likely to get two or more random
    events per domain turn, and substantially smaller realms should be more
    likely to have none, but I don`t think the number of random events alone
    entirely expresses the problems with efficiency in large realms. The
    amount of revenue collected by provinces or holdings doesn`t decrease at
    all no matter how large and relatively inefficient the government becomes,
    nor are the costs for performing activities in larger realms that a smaller
    realm can perform more easily and efficiently.

    At 12:19 PM 5/30/2002 -0400, Adam Theo wrote:

    >this is something i too am looking into for my new domain system
    >[http://www.theoretic.com/?Domains]. I would be very interested in ideas
    >here, since I don`t have any of my own yet :)

    From a game mechanical perspective, I have a couple of thoughts.

    1. Inefficiency should kick in for the provinces and holdings that exceed
    the regent`s bloodline strength score. That is, if King Bobo has a BSS of
    48, inefficiency should start creeping in at some point after he controls
    49+ levels of provinces and/or holdings. One could make an argument that
    bloodline strength score should have nothing to do with relative
    efficiency, but my take on this is that
    A. Bloodline is the basis of the BR system, and should be supported in
    as many additional ways as possible.
    B. Many of the existing realms in the published materials seem to
    collect the maximum amount of regency possible given the bloodline strength
    of the regent who controls them. That`s not necessarily a reason to go
    with such a ruling--one shouldn`t necessarily come up with guidelines to
    justify things retroactively, IMO. It`s nice when they do justify such
    things, but that`s not really a reason to come up with a rule.

    2. Inefficiency might influence several things at the realm level. As
    noted above, it might affect he amount of revenue collected or the number
    of random events might be greatly increased, but a large, inefficient realm
    might also suffer any of the following consequences:
    A. The base RP/GB cost of domain actions could go up.
    B. The time required to perform domain actions or the time in which
    they take effect could increase.
    C. The difficulty of various domain actions could go up.
    D. Normally "free" actions could be lost. (An emperor might be
    prevented from performing Adventure actions.)
    E. The types of domain actions a regent can perform could be
    limited. (Very large realms might no longer be able to Agitate.)
    F. Various domain actions might not be able to be performed as realm
    actions, or there may be come limit place on the extent to which a realm
    action can function. (A regent might not be able to Rule more levels of
    holdings as a realm action than he has bloodline strength.)
    G. Maintenance costs for the realm, castles, military units, ships,
    etc. could rise.
    H. The stats of various military units might decrease.
    I. The amount of RP that a regent can spend to assure the success of an
    action or in a RP bidding war with another regent might be limited.

    I don`t much like several of those possibilities, but others I think make
    some sense.

    Gary

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  7. #7
    Site Moderator Magian's Avatar
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    I don`t see the Empire of Anuire being directly ruled by the Emperor since
    that is virtually impossible. Therefore he takes on what his abilities
    (bloodline str) can handle and delegates the other holdings and lands to
    subjects who swear fealty to him. Of course this is self explanatory but if
    a regent decided to take more holdings than his bld str could maintain he
    places himself at risk of loss. Ghoere is an example of this sure his realm
    is powerful and militant but it is spread thin if a contest war plagued him
    from all sides. The efficiency of a Regents RP takes care of itself in the
    due course of actions in a campaign.

    Vassals are a good and bad thing, however since the game is already complex
    running domain functions all the way down to the lords and knights of law
    holdings would defeat the funtionality of the game (needn`t be said it is so
    obvious). Thus we are given regents or minor Kings who rule their own
    little domains of various types. These Kings are the sovereign level of the
    domain where the said random actions affect and can be run in a somewhat
    simple game system. These sovereigns act as the default domain caretaker
    for all the peerage under them. The domain maintenance and court cost are
    what the regent pays back to the nobles of his land since they divert
    regency and taxes to him. Sovereigns are the characters where the domain
    level of the game functions to keep things simple. However the peerage can
    always play a bigger role at any time (seperatist movements and rebellions).
    As far as this goes each domain is sovereign to those unnamed individuals
    serving under it for functionality purpose. This is where the bld str
    importance is evident since the strength of the bloodline is basically a
    rating of how big of a realm a character can be a sovereign over
    (efficiently).

    When dealing with sovereign vassals such as with an empire scale mere
    diplomatic arrangements of tribute and so on would act as the efficiency for
    the empire. No empire existed without lieutenants, governors, vassals and
    so on to keep the local populace in line. (or Moffs depending what galaxy
    you are from) Therefore no emperor truly rules directly, and if he does he
    is a fool cause his domain will be stagnant. (this is anuire not persia)

    A good question is where do the random events occur? Certainly if a
    character ruled directly over all cerilia there would be more than one roll
    for random evens. If not then direct rule would prove more profitable. I
    do think a sovereign level (regent) would maintain a good guide for any DM
    and random events. I would also suggest that a direct ruling emperor would
    have to hold against peerage trying random events of their own since his
    highly central rule is easily weakened by just a few individuals.

    Perhaps that is why a PC (someone who adventures and understands teamwork)
    is recommended to become the next emperor. Not some megalomaniac who thinks
    he is the only one fit to rule.

    ciao,

    Paul

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  8. #8
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Never mind, Gary. Sorry to have bothered.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  9. #9
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 01:34 PM 5/30/2002 -0400, Daniel McSorley wrote:

    > > In the current BR realm rules there`s no limit to the size of a realm that
    > > a regent can rule. Bloodline strength, of course, limits the maximum
    > > amount of RP that can be collected without resorting to vassals, but
    > > technically there`s no reason why one regent couldn`t rule every province
    > > and holding in Cerilia--and all the ones on Aduria too, for that matter.
    > >
    > > I know this is a rather vague idea, but does anyone have any thoughts on
    > > how efficiency and size might affect the realm level of play?
    >
    >For acting in a province, for every province it is away from the capitol,
    >add an extra RP cost to the action. If you want to be really mean, an
    >extra GB too. So every action in Ilien costs as normal. In Medoere,
    >since both non-capitol provinces there border the capitol, actions will
    >often cost an extra RP.

    That`s interesting. I did a similar thing for various domain actions but
    limited it to the provinces in which the regent had some sort of control;
    he controlled the province, a holding or had a ley line/trade route to
    it. The costs of performing certain domain actions (most notably
    Espionage) increased by +1 RP and +1GB per province outside of the regent`s
    control.

    Do you use a Create Capitol action in order to designate the "central
    location" of the realm for the purpose of the costs you expressed
    above? Does the capitol have other effects?

    Gary

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  10. #10
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    > I know this is a rather vague idea, but does anyone have any thoughts on
    > how efficiency and size might affect the realm level of play?

    I agree with Kenneth`s comment that random events should begin to
    overwhelm, since they really should be handled as "one event per N
    provinces or holdings" rather than "one event per regent". There is also
    the increased maintenance cost per holding chart; it does get linear above
    100 holdings, but one can fit a simple power-law function to the rest of
    the table to extrapolate a curve which shows that once you get too many
    holdings, they start to cost you more in maintenance than you make in
    revenue (I did this once, but I don`t have in in front of me -- I`ll try
    to remember to look tonight). One change you could consider is limiting
    realm actions to cover at most some number of provinces; one way to do
    this, and bleed off some of the extra RP and GB as well, is say that it
    costs a cumulative +1 RP and/or GB per holding in the action. Thus, to
    Rule up five temple holdings in one action would cost an additional 10
    (0+1+2+3+4) RP/GB/both beyond the basic cost; this means that ruling up
    dozens of holdings in one action would suddenly become much less
    attractive, and make the regent much more vulnerable to dozens of separate
    Contests from a bunch of smaller regents.


    Ryan Caveney

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