The Birthright Domain rules

[Mark_Aurel]

I'd like to see some thoughts here from everyone - a discussion of the system itself. Basically, things like:

- Which parts are too complex? Can anything be done about it?
- Which parts are too sketchy? Is there anything that needs fleshing out?
- Does any part of the system take too long? Bookkeeping, dice rolling, etc.
- Is there anything you think is "unrealistic" or unnecessarily restricted?
- Is there any lack of balance to it? Does one type of holding generally give less "clout" than the others?

If you were to alter the system, what would you do?
- Would you remove anything?
- Would you add anything?
- Is there anything you'd do differently?

Does the system as is give each character class a satisfying role to play? Are there any parts you don't like about any given class?

Do you like the system just as it is, and wouldn't change a comma even if someone put a gun to your head? Would you implement radical change?

Most importantly: What house rules do you use?

Now, I'm not expecting anyone to provide the Answer. I do hope, however, that we can get some good thoughts and ideas going here.

[Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel]

Create a priestly counterpart to the Magician, to lower the overall magic level of the setting (to where its supposed to be).

The battle system is really weak, but I'm not sure how I'd fix it myself. I don't like warcards, I used Battlesystem in my games. Also, I haven't seen the official birthright naval rules (Cerilian seas or something) but naval combat seems to take after warcard system, too vague.

I don't think that Travis Doom's conversion properly allowed for enough randomness in calculation of taxes and whatnot. There should be high points and low points.

However, I really enjoy most of the system, I just believe that there is always room for improvement.

[spehar]

Are we talking about from 2nd Ed or from one of the conversion manuals?

Gargamel: The tax collectio chart is simply to provide the averages and to simplify game play. If you don't like statistical averages then rolling is equally fine. Assuming standard distribution though, you'll average the number's in the chart.

[Mark_Aurel]

Primarily 2e - though I'd certainly like a mention of what was good and not in the various conversion manuals as well.

However, I really enjoy most of the system, I just believe that there is always room for improvement.

Any specific areas? The battle system was pointed out. Other areas? Suggestions?

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Mark_Aurel
'd like to see some thoughts here from everyone - a discussion of the system itself.

Here's my two coppers:
--I think one of the key problems with the tax collections and holding income is the different die types. if they were all based on a specific die system (1d4) it would simplify things tremendously.
--the law claims also need help. If you don't have good bookkeeping records, the system is impossible to use with any speed.
--the entire war system needs some SERIOUS clarification and detail. To mnay of the rules are vague (pillaging and occupation) and to open to arguement.
--burn the war card method of combat. Using warcards for units and the map is fine, but the warcards for the combat sequences need help, bad.
--Kill battle magic. It has no place in the system in its current form. Realm magic and standard spells that effect large numbers of people are sufficient.
--Trade Routes need major cleanup. I prefer to base them on guild level rather than province level. I also drop the RP collect from their income. In fact, I actually charge 1 RP to maintain them like a Ley Line.
--in the original boxed set it says something to the effect of there are only 80-100 wizards of significant power. The book of Magecraft threw that number out the window. I'd like to see wizards brough back under control and made a oddity rather than common place. That was one of the best things about Birthright IMO.
--I would like to see an expanded version of loyalty. The three generic ranks is a bit to narrow for my blood. A system of 1-10 type thing would be a bit more to my liking.
-- I would like to see temples given a bit more of a central role and a bit more clout or authority. They generally are overlooked in many campaigns and are left to the mercy of the landed regent. I think the churchs would generally have a bit more influence on a regents actions and have the ability to hold the regent a bit more accountable for his actions. Though this is more roleplaying then rule specific...
--I think druids need to come more to the fore-front. They are virtually non-existent in the original boxed set. Rules for their collection of RP from temples or sources would be nice.

[Mark_Aurel]

Very good post, Lawgiver - I wish more people'd give some feedback like that.

[Mithrandir]

I would personally like to see the domain actions tied into the adventure action better. What I mean to say is that the current rules stand almost idependent from the role-playing action. True I know what happens to a Law Holding when I contest it, but as a DM I need to be able to describe what's happening when the PCs go adventuring in this domain. The current rules give a fairly broad definition of a law Holding:"Law holdings represent bureaucrats, constables, taxmen, highway bandits, rebel organizations....". Clearly then a regent's method of "contesting" each one of these holdings varies with the type of holding. (you deal with bandits quite differently then you deal with bureaucrats, even though sometimes it's hard to tell the difference;)) Also, a level 2 province can only support a level 2 law holding, but according to the book of regency, a regent will have all kinds of headaches if only has a level 2 holding in a level 8 province. This make perfect sense in terms of rukes, but it brings up the question of what these levels represent. It can't just be a bigger goverment system, because the population wouldn't stop a mad and/or determined regent from building a huge goverment, unless the arguement is made that a level 2 holding employs a huge percentage of the population and that doesn't make sense. Also, what is a source holding? I understand that it represents "mastery of control of the contiously renewed mystical essence of the living land" but what is that? If I want to build a guild, I construct a building and start a buisness. What I am I doing when I create/contest/etc. a source holding? all in all I just want to see rational real world type explanations of all the domain actions.

[Lord Eldred]

Overall I like the system the way it is for domain turns however there are some minor complaints.

1. When doing domain turns with regents, players who are not regents get bored. I suppose you could play sessions without your non-regents but they need to be on stand by just in case anything needs to be role-played.

2. How do people get in a bidding war for domain actions for things like espionage? If it is suppose to be in secret how can someone keep on bidding more regency or gold bars to increase or decrease the chance of successful outcome?

3. How does a DM keep track of all the NPC regent actions? If the NPCs do nothing they will soon fall way behind the PCs but if you take time to take action for each regent how will you have time for your family?

These are the only issues I have come accross in the game so far. Otherwise I like it.

[Mark_Aurel]

Excellent feedback all - keep it coming. Much of what you've posted has already been accounted for in the drafts for the official 3e conversion.

[spehar]

Here are all the problems with birthright in 2nd ed (that i can think of now anyway)

- needs to be more incentive for playing non-blooded characters
- races aren't balanced
- priests are completely out of whack!
- the magician class needs work
- knowing languages should be rare
- increasing bloodline strength was to easy
- getting regency should be more common
- awnshegh need a LOT of work
1. awnshegh arent consistent within the rules
2. no rules for making an awnshegh/ershegh
3. the blood of azrai needs to be expanded on
4. i know theres more...

- a lot of blood abilities are out of whack
- province sizes need to be harder to level up
- province sizes also need to be restricted to how often they can be ruled
- trade route rules are BROKEN.
- regency bidding should be clarified
- loyalty levels need expanded
- rules need to exist for non-standard realms (ie elven realms)
- regency class collection has flaws
more random events
- id like to see courts do more
- domain actions. ugh. ill just say this. mustering units should have some limitations
- military...dbl ugh. a few non popular points.
1. irregulars ROCK!
2. a lot of people get confused with the declare war action. needs clarified.
3. moving units an friendly space but not within ur own country. u might not even have ur own country. ie mercs and temples

- birthright tried doing a semi specialty priest thing with there priests. it was a complete flop since it was so broken. could be done in 3rd ed with prestige classes. trick is to do it right.

- who is the cold rider?
- a lot of the realm and battle spells were broken

all i can think of off hand