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12-09-2005, 07:49 AM #11
The BRCS seems to be pretty clear on this......if you are undead you have no bloodline,period.
Yet we have the magian and the riders..........wtf?
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12-09-2005, 10:27 AM #12
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Originally Posted by Question
IMC a dead character has lost their bloodline even if resurected. The Magian, while haveing most of the attrubutes of a lich is more akin to JK Rollins Voldemort. It would certainly not hurt The Magian to be feared as a lich while being something else that the PCs don't expect.
As to bloodthefting a powerful Awnsheigh (the only characters that should have such an invulnrability IMO), I'm happy to let the one method of killing them also be the means of bloodthefting. IMC the blood form that once afflicted the Awnsheigh now afflicts the slayer.
my 2 c.p.
Doyle.Doyle
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12-09-2005, 10:55 AM #13
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Originally Posted by Question
Where is it specific on the fact that if you are undead you have no bollodline?
It is clear that when you die you lose your bloodline, but you can attempt to regain one afterwards. Under resurrection it talks about it - basically I don't see where it denies this for those being raised as undead.
I can see how a suit of armor with the blood protection ability could be used to aid in the effort to maintain a bloodline when transforming into a lich.
Chap 2:
People, animals, and on very rare occasions, even objects in the immediate area of a scion's violent death may absorb a portion of the scion's divine essence. This burst of divine energy can be measured in the form of RP equal to five times the victim’s bloodline ability score. The radius of this burst of energy is equal to one foot for every point of power released. For example, a scion with a bloodline score of 20 is slain in combat; the result burst of energy will have a radius of 100 ft. This burst of energy is not affected by the scion’s current regency reserve (which normally passes to her invested heir), but from her very body.
Becoming blooded through usurpation
Non-blooded creatures exposed to divine energies released during usurpation may spontaneously become blooded. This occurred on a massive scale at Deismaar and transformed its heroes into the first scions. If a non-blooded character absorbs RP from a source whose derivation agrees with their basic nature, they may become blooded.
Chap 3:
Resurrection
Resurrection is a rare occurrence in Cerilia. Although it is certainly possible to Raise Dead, most clerics are loath to do so. Firstly, death is assumed to be the providence of the gods. Only in the most unusual circumstances (and for the greater good) would most clerics choose to interfere with the will of the gods and rip a soul from its place of earned reward or punishment.
Secondly, when a scion dies, the vital energy of their bloodline is released at the moment of their death and absorbed by those nearby. A resurrected character's bloodline is gone forever. They have no bloodline score and are not a scion. They can certainly attempt to gain a new bloodline through investiture or bloodtheft, but their original bloodline can never be restored.
Chap 8:
Blood Protection:A suit of armor with this enchantment protects the wearer from losing his bloodline through bloodtheft as if protected the Bloodline Ward realm spell. The character's bloodline is retained in the armor and can be released only by the touch of one of the slain scion's descendents (who absorbs the bloodline as per a Bloodline Investiture realm spell). The presence of the bloodline cannot be detected by common magic and can only be destroyed if the armor is destroyed. A suit of armor with this ability cannot store more than one bloodline at a time. Caster Level: 12th; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, scion, bloodline ward; Market Price: +3 bonus.
Duane Eggert
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12-09-2005, 05:50 PM #14
Invulnerable Blood Ability: How do you handle it?
At 08:49 AM 12/9/2005 +0100, Question wrote:
>The BRCS seems to be pretty clear on this......if you are undead you have
>no bloodline,period.
>
>Yet we have the magian and the riders..........wtf?
Well, first off, as Irdeggman notes there`s no reason why an intelligent
undead creature can`t have a bloodline. Supposedly bloodline is lost if a
character is killed and brought back to _life_ but a character who "dies"
and becomes "undead" is a bit different, and we don`t really have a ruling
on that.
Secondly, when it comes to the Magian, he may not actually be "undead" in
the sense that he is really a lich. I haven`t seen a 3e write up of that
character, but in 2e there were some differences between that character`s
description and the powers/abilities of a typical 2e lich, which leads me
to suspect he was not intended to be a lich, but an awnshegh whose theme
was that of a lich-like creature. The magian is no more undead than the
Serpent is _really_ a snake, or the Spider an arachnid. They are humans
whose divine (infernal) blood has transformed their bodies into those
forms. Similarly, the Vampire is a vampire in name and theme, but not in
the sense that he is a "standard" D&D vampire. All of these characters are
unique creatures who have taken on a process of transformation that is
similar to that of another kind of monster, but they remain essentially
transformed humans (or a goblin in the case of the Spider) rather than
actually becoming a type of monster in the sense that their basic "type" is
changed.
Gary
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12-13-2005, 03:33 PM #15
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12-13-2005, 04:24 PM #16
Invulnerable Blood Ability: How do you handle it?
At 07:33 AM 12/13/2005, Question wrote:
>Huh.....i guess i must have mis-understood it.My understanding was
>that you couldnt have a bloodline as undead because you were dead in the sense.
It is kind of a hinky distinction that requires more than a little
interpretation, and several aspects of it could go either way. For
instance, I would personally rule that any scion who was killed and
then raised as an undead creature would lose his/er bloodline because
I think the important aspect of the loss of bloodline that occurs
when a character dies and then is raised (by a clerical spell) is the
actual dying part. The godly energy that resides in a creatures body
is dispersed by death just as the godly energy was originally
released from the gods themselves when they died. Most undead
creatures go through a process of dying and resurrection that is
enough like the rule about a scion who returns to (mortal) life
losing his bloodline that I would apply the same rule to both processes.
That said, it is entirely possible to have a BR-specific type of
undead (spectral scion, for example, only exist in BR) and rule that
such a creature retains its bloodline after death as a kind of
special case. I`ve got a monster that I`ve been mulling over called
the Fear Gortach which is a kind of haunting effect in a certain area
where a scion has been killed by a stab through the heart that did
not result in an act of bloodtheft. If the scion is killed by a
commoner or otherwise dies in an act that would normally result in
the release of his bloodline there is the potential for his soul to
become "rooted" to the spot that he died as a malicious spirit,
trapped in the world of the living. (IIRC in the BRCS Update any
time a scion is stabbed through the heart it makes for a sort of
bloodtheft situation, but originally bloodtheft only occurred
predictably when a scion was stabbed by another scion, and I prefer
that, so I don`t use the "exploding" scion version.) The Fear
Gortach for reasons of theme, therefore, retains its bloodline.
When it comes to issues of bloodtheft or otherwise acquiring a
bloodline there`s no reason I can think of that would prevent an
undead creature from gaining one after it rises in its undead
form. There are a few methods for acquiring a bloodline (the Land`s
Choice, inheritance) that would work. In the case of the Magian, he
may or may not actually be undead, but as a member of the Lost
(pre-Deismaar wizards who were empowered by Azrai with the ability to
wield true magic) he might be a character who became a lich, retained
his power to cast true magic and THEN acquired a bloodline by some means.
Gary
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12-13-2005, 05:58 PM #17
It is a logical assumption Question, one I had to work through as well. My players were all under the same assumption. The act of death causes the loss of the bloodline, and the general pre-requisite for being and undead is in fact dying. It isn't too much of a stretch though that if a character underwent some sort of transformation that made them undead (or undead like) without the actual dying (Like I'm assuming becoming an awnseghlien that resembles an undead creature) they could retain their bloodline. Also, how Irdeggman mentioned, there are ways magically (magic item) to bind a bloodline and thus cheat bloodtheft/death. What I've come to realize from this discussion has been that blood doesn't exactly have to be what contains the devine energy per say. What I mean by this is it doesn't exactly have to be pumping, or it could more resemble ichor, bug juice, or whatever psuedo-vascular sytem or liquid a slime or jelly would have. It is kind of the symbolism of the internal (un)life-sustaining liquid/juice/energy. And what a lot of people are saying, is that the Magian might not even be actually undead at all, just a lot like it, or received his bloodline afterwards. All of these posts that you all have put here give me so much inspiration.
Regards,
Ausrick
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12-13-2005, 06:25 PM #18People, animals, and on very rare occasions, even objects in the immediate area of a scion's violent death may absorb a portion of the scion's divine essence.
And for those thinking I am mean, He was a level two character, and went to the local wanted board outside the city hall, and I gave him about 20 pre-made posts for things wanted (all of verying potential and difficulty), and he jumped all over the add from a local wizard who wanted the corpse of a Dire Bear. The rest of the party all said he was nuts and they didn't have time for this but he would not be swayed. The Druid PC said he would have no part in this unnecessary slaughter. The bard PC made the joke to our would-be hunter that "If he wants to get the Druid's approval, then for every bear he takes from the Erebannien, he must then plant two bears." and then wrote a song about the great bear hunter, telling him that he would have the rare chance to hear the ode to his bravery before he perished, when they were typically written. His fellow compatriots chiding and laughing did not disuade him. He went in search of a guide. An NPC ranger who had survived a mauling showed him his scars. He still was determined. Finally he found a guide brave/stupid enough to take him on the hunt. I kid you not, the Dire Bear (CR 7) killed him in one round, sent him to -26. It's not like I did this to a 10 or 12 year old who had never played, this man is 27 and says he has been playing since he was in elementary school. Later he said to me that "It wasn't fair because he didn't know he could die". He's been playing in my campaign for months and I told him when he rolled up his character that I make it as real as possible, death can happen.
Sorry for the story of digression, just wanted to share that. And let you guys know that I don't let my players solo things 5 CR higher than themselves out of sadistic pleasure.
So the question, should the Dire Bear get a bloodline? and what would it possibly look like if an animal receives a bloodline, whould they even have the intelligence to use it? And I would say getting mauled as bad as he did, it probably had a good chance of peircing his heart with his claws. IIRC when it happened I described the last thing he saw was massive paws bigger than his torso come down onto his chest and his vision suddenly jerked back to the trees behind him as if flying through the air, so for all he knows he might not even have a heart left or have even been decapitated.Regards,
Ausrick
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12-13-2005, 07:24 PM #19
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Perhaps it is just some unique aspect of the Magian's bloodform. At the moment he was changed, he became lich-like or "undead". Somewhat like the Nazghul.
"They are the Nazghul; Ringwraiths. They are neither living nor dead."
If he is one of the Lost (contraditions again), then maybe it was the Unique nature of the Shadow World that has given him his "lich like" quality.
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12-13-2005, 07:46 PM #20
Invulnerable Blood Ability: How do you handle it?
At 11:24 AM 12/13/2005, Rhiannon Faramiriel wrote:
>Perhaps it is just some unique aspect of the Magian`s bloodform. At
>the moment he was changed, he became lich-like or "undead". Somewhat
>like the Nazghul.
>
>"They are the Nazghul; Ringwraiths. They are neither living nor dead."
I think the Magian would be more like Sauron before he lost his ring
than one of the Nazghul. His riders are, after all, more on the
order of ringwraiths than he is.
>If he is one of the Lost (contraditions again), then maybe it was
>the Unique nature of the Shadow World that has given him his "lich
>like" quality.
We know very little about the Lost other than they had access to
magics beyond that normally available to humans. Exactly how this
changed them if at all is a matter for conjecture. Personally, I
like the idea that they had some sort of negative effects, but I
don`t think there should necessarily be any one manifestation of that
process. That is, being a member of the Lost might have effects
similar to being an awnshegh in that it transforms a person
physically but in a way that is unique for each character. That
would support the fact that there are many more awnsheghlien than
ersheghlien despite there being more scions of the other bloodlines,
it helps explain the nature of the Lost by drawing a parallel between
the power of bloodline to allow humans to cast true magic, and lastly
it hints at a connection between the process of bloodline
transference that happened so dramatically at Deismaar. That is, if
Azrai could "infuse" the Lost with some of his divine energy to allow
them access to true magic then that is another example of how
bloodline is transferred in the first place, helping to justify the
setting`s backstory.
Why is the Magian being a member of the Lost a contradiction? Does
it say flat out that he is not in some other source or give some
other definitive explanation of his origin?
Gary
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