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Thread: Chap 2 Revision

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    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Alright, due to the imminent issue of Dragon #315 supposed with an article on this subject and the potential OGL conflict, I thought it would be best to post this now until waiting for the whole BRCS revision and a more detailed review by the development team (to correct any glaring errors). So I apologize for any of the probable glaring errors and consistencies that are in it but here is the revision to the BRCS for discussion.

    I tried the best I could to incorporate the poll results (basically the favored version was Mark_Aurel's feat-like approach followed closely by the revised BRCS proposal and the other poll that basically had that people wanted variants to allow blood score to be determined randomly and non-randomly).

    It took a lot of time to try and fill out the feat-like table. I hope I captured its essence. One of the concepts there was for prerequisites:

    Common blood abilities: Minor Bld 20, Major Bld 24, and Great Bld 32

    Rare blood abilities: Minor 24, Major 32, and Great 36

    Very Rare blood abilities: Great (only) Bld 40

    I tried to give more examples of created blood abilities and included 2 from the Seeking Bloodsilver adventure.

    I also tried to include some guidelines for how to include domain-level based effects for blood abilities without writing them for all of them (the end product would start to get too long, IMO - it was best to just give DMs some guidelines on how to balance them and insert what they want to)

    I also included more variants that I think captured many of the comments made.

    Enjoy the read and give feedback



    http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php...e=post&id=22896
    Duane Eggert

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    Overall I felt that you did an excellent job with the revision and appreciated the many variants that you chose to include within this chapter as well as the updated descriptions of the blood abilities. My question is this: Will the rules for creating a blooded character using ECL adjustments be included in the final draft? If not, I was wondering what you might suggest as fair templates for this method. (how many bloodline points to add, ecl adjustment, etc.)

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    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Blackfrost@Dec 11 2003, 02:18 PM
    Overall I felt that you did an excellent job with the revision and appreciated the many variants that you chose to include within this chapter as well as the updated descriptions of the blood abilities. My question is this: Will the rules for creating a blooded character using ECL adjustments be included in the final draft? If not, I was wondering what you might suggest as fair templates for this method. (how many bloodline points to add, ecl adjustment, etc.)
    I would avoid using ECL templates entirely and instead use the class levels. It is more in line with 3.5. In fact on the Wizards site they are posting class levels (or equivalent) for all ECL'd templates in the Monster Manual just to keep things consistent.

    Here's the link to check it out

    http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a

    If you really want to use ECL templates then I'd just continue to use the ones in the first version of the BRCS-playtest.

    Back to your question - there are no plans to include ECL templates at this time. If there is enough voiced opinions this may be reversed though.

    Sorry for seeming so brash and off the cuff, if you take the templates from the BRCS-playtest and double the blood score bonuses they should work fairly well, although I still think that using level-progression is the better way to go, besides we are only talking about 2 levels vice 4 or 5.
    Duane Eggert

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    Yes, what you said does sound sensible. I hadn't seen that post on the Wizards site but now that I have what you've done does sound like a better alternative than ecl adjustments.

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    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    It's been a while - any feedback on this proposed revision?
    Duane Eggert

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    Overall I like it, here are few minor suggestions.

    You have altered the raising/lowering the bloodscore so that they have the same cost/benefit in RP. In the BRCS raising the bloodscore cost twice as much RP as would then be recieved by lowering it. Why the change?

    Resistance: Brenna gives a save bonus against magic that would constrain the scion. This is by far the weakest of all the Resistance benefits. I would suggest giving the bonus to rolls against both magical and physical restraints.

    Scion levels:Vorynn gives 2-3 cantrips as a magical bonus. For a spellcaster this would be incredibly weak. I would suggest giving up that benefit and the leadership bonus and instead for each level giving for spells per day, +1 level to a spellcasting class. I thought Vorynn was the weakest of the Scion classes, and leadership is not that important to most spellcasting classes. Although, since Scry has been removed from 3.5, I would give concentration as a class skill instead. I realize scry may still have some use in BR, but it is a very weak skill and not useful for all spellcasting classes, concentration is.

    Overall I think it was a great job irdeggman
    Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night. Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

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    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by The Jew@Jan 7 2004, 12:40 AM
    Overall I like it, here are few minor suggestions.

    You have altered the raising/lowering the bloodscore so that they have the same cost/benefit in RP. In the BRCS raising the bloodscore cost twice as much RP as would then be recieved by lowering it. Why the change?

    Resistance: Brenna gives a save bonus against magic that would constrain the scion. This is by far the weakest of all the Resistance benefits. I would suggest giving the bonus to rolls against both magical and physical restraints.

    Scion levels:Vorynn gives 2-3 cantrips as a magical bonus. For a spellcaster this would be incredibly weak. I would suggest giving up that benefit and the leadership bonus and instead for each level giving for spells per day, +1 level to a spellcasting class. I thought Vorynn was the weakest of the Scion classes, and leadership is not that important to most spellcasting classes. Although, since Scry has been removed from 3.5, I would give concentration as a class skill instead. I realize scry may still have some use in BR, but it is a very weak skill and not useful for all spellcasting classes, concentration is.

    Overall I think it was a great job irdeggman
    The RP cost for raising/lowering blood score was changed to match the 2nd ed method. The original BRCS method was modified because of the 1/2 blood score conversion.

    If enough people want it changed I can change it though.

    Re: Vorynn

    I thought that I had caught all the references to the Scry skill - will fix it. I agree Concentration makes a good skill to replace it with.

    I absolutely disagree with you assumption of the importance of the Leadership score. That is what is used to determine the level of Lts as well as bodyguards/followers, etc.

    Making the class benefit +1 caster level really won't help. The assumption I am making is that most characters will start as a level of scion. Previously gained levels don't stack. So if a character starts as a scion 1 and then gains a level of wizard he wouldn't become a 2nd level wizard spellcaster.

    The Vorynn scion class starts with d6 hit die which is greater than either the wizard or sorcerer classes have.

    The 2 cantrips are bonus spells much like the 3.5 gnome or drow receive and don't "count" as wizard/sorcerer spells.

    This scion class was designed to have an arcane caster orientation but by definition it is not limited to spellcasters hence if a scion starts with Vo scion class levels and becomes a fighter (or barbarian if a Vos) he gains arcane like abilities that are a reflection of his bloodline. Heck it even works for those who take up the cleric paths.

    When compared to the other scion classes this benefit seems balanced to me without causing an increase in relative power and yet still gives something that a character would benefit from taking a class level vice some sort of level adjustment.

    Again, I am not opposed to changing anything if enough people want it changed - as long as it is sonsistent with 3.5 (which all of your comments are).

    Thanks for the feedback I appreciate it.
    Duane Eggert

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    On Wed, 7 Jan 2004, The Jew wrote:

    > You have altered the raising/lowering the bloodscore so that they have

    > the same cost/benefit in RP. In the BRCS raising the bloodscore cost

    > twice as much RP as would then be recieved by lowering it. Why the

    > change?



    That`s the original rule; the BRCS rule for raising score came from the

    problem of having to multiply it by two to determine how much RP you could

    collect.



    It works better conceptually if it`s even, anyway; divine essence can`t be

    created or destroyed, just change state and be juggled around.



    --

    Daniel McSorley

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    Administrator Arius Vistoon's Avatar
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    for begin... it's a good job

    ursupation :
    why a non-blooded become more powerfull than the slain scion.
    A non-blooded character kill a major,16 become blooded character whith major,20 !
    it's strange no ?
    ( i suggest replace 10 by 5, also the same character in the same situation become a blooded character major,13 -> 6+7+8+9+10+11+12+13=76 left 4 which disappear ).

    table ( ok, it's a detail, sorry ) :
    you say for a smaller table, you delete row not usefull but row 2 at 4 ( for memory, i doesn't have table under my hand ) is not usefull because it's the same that row 1.

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    It seems that I will die of old age before getting to see the whole new playtest version. :P So, I have decided to add a few minor comments on Chap 2 right now even though I do not fully understand the big picture.

    The following are just minor points:

    * I am not happy with the concept that 'most highborn nobles, courtiers, advisors, and government officials do not possess bloodline' This might have been the situation in early days of the empire but after 1500 years of Deismaar it seems illogical. Blood is prerequisite of effective ruling and the line between high-born nobles and rulers is vague at best. Moreover, blood is certainly prestige and it can be bought or taken by force, ie those who have power can acquire it quite easily and have motivation to do so. Therefore, I think that by HC 1524 all (significant) nobles have blood although the blood of the old (or original lines) is much stronger.

    * In the 2nd ed bloodline strength was measured by a numerical score: 1-100. The bloodlines were also divided into categories - tainted, minor, major, great and true. However, the categories simply illustrated the score and had no significance of their own (save a few exceptions).

    You have kept the old score system but have separated the categories. I am OK with the new concept but I find the terminology confusing. 2nd edition bloodline strength is now called bloodline score and the categories are called bloodline strength. This is somewhat misleading because bloodline score also reflects the blood's strength by determining the number of blood abilities, max RPs collected etc. It is especially confusing for those who played by the out-of-the-box 2nd ed BR rules. Also, 'bloodline score' is a technical term: in the game world the score is likely referred to as 'strength of the blood' (or something like this) adding to the confusion. In short, I recommend calling the current 'bloodline score' 'blood strength'. The new concept could be called 'bloodline purity'. Thus, a scion with Brenna-minor-50 would be described as having strong blood but impure bloodline.

    * Isn't it possible to abuse the usurpation rules? Say, a male awnsegh of bloodscore 40 breeds with commoners producing offspring with bloodscore 20. Then he kills them in a violent manner getting 100 RP each time. A handy way to store RP isn't it?

    Overall impression: excellent work Duan! B)

    P.S. I have only skimmed through the blood abilities. Once I have had closer look I may have some additional comments.

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