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  1. #1
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    After reading Geeman's thread on ranking Awnsheghlien and Ersheglien, I've been thinking that Bloodform and Bloodtrait could definitely use some work. In particular, differentiating and distinguishing the major and great versions of those blood abilities.

    As things stand, I believe the only difference between the two in the BRCS (p. 175, under the template description for advancing an awneshegh) is that the Great version allows the character to gain a monster ability every level of monster advancement, while the Major ability allows for 3 monster abilities per 4 monster levels gained.

    Is it just me, or does this seem like a pretty weak (and messy) distinction between the two?

    Here's my suggestion:

    Break down the advantages of the various monster traits, and assign a point value to each based on their advantages and disadvantages. This should include all aspects of a monster template: creature type (different types have definite advantages over others, like higher HD, more high saves, better BAB, etc.), racial skill bonuses or penalties, racial ability modifiers, special attacks and defenses, special abilities, etc.

    That's the hard part. The advantage is that once you have a point value assigned to various strengths and weaknesses (which would grant extra points), it becomes easy to differentiate the Bloodform/-Trait abilities.
    The Great ability simply grants more points per monster level than the major ability. And I would make the gap larger than in the BRCS (where the Great ability is only about 25% stronger than the Major one).

    I would go with something more like a 2:3 ratio for Major/Great. For instance, Major grants 12 points per monster level worth of abilities, while Great grants 18. This makes the awn-/ersheghlien with Great bloodlines and matching Bloodtrait/-Form abilities more appropriately powerful and impressive creatures.

    Right now I'm still brainstorming a good point system, but here are some guidelines I'm thinking (before I go through a lot of work for nothing). Anyone who wants to help with this and get on board is welcome to post ideas.

    The basic point cost of a monster level should first be balanced against a normal character level. In other words, does the base racial template make the character weaker than a PC, or stronger? Some types, like the Humanoid type, are decidedly weaker than a PC class level. Others, like Outsiders, are definitely stronger.

    Weaker types might grant extra points to buy on other [compensating] abilities, such as ability increases, racial skill modifiers, or special abilities. Strong templates would cost points each level, and racial types that are roughly equivalent to PC classes should have a cost of 0 (the baseline comparison for measuring power of a level of advancement). I don't have specific costs down yet, as I'd need to study the Monster Manual and Savage Species to get a better sense of balance between racial templates. Any help by those of you who have studied this sort of thing more intently (Geeman?) is welcomed here! :huh:

    Some Sample Point Costs: (based partly on the BRCS guidelines)

    Some racial template possibilities (these are very much up for debate):
    Outsider: cost 8 points per level
    Magical Beast, Monstrous Humanoid: 6 points per level
    Undead, Constructs: 4 points per level
    Vermin, Fey, Humanoids, and Abberrations: gain 2 points per level


    Racial Skill Bonuses: 2 points per +2 skill bonus

    Racial Ability Modifiers: 8 points per +2 ability modifier

    Natural Armor: 3 points per +1 Natural Armor bonus

    Bonus Feats/Special Abilities (such as Improved Grab): 8 points each as a default for feat-equivalents

    Other special abilities: the range of possible abilities based on changing anatomy and creature type is almost endless:
    -New type of movement at 30' speed: 12 points (ex: flying, burrowing, or swimming)
    -Additional Speed to one movement type: 4 points per 10' of speed increase
    -Natural Weapons: base of 4 points per d6 of damage per natural weapon gained; +2 points per increased damage die increment (6 points for d8, 8 points for d10, 10 points for 2d6, etc.); use the DMG for guidelines on damage die increases, and keep the damage appropriate to the creature type.
    -New Perception Types:
    =Darkvision 60': 4 points (+2 per additional 30&#39
    =Blindsight or Tremorsense: 8 points per 30' of radius
    -Natural Resistances:
    =Damage Reduction: 3 points per point of DR; vulnerability should be appropriate to monster type. If the vulnerability is exceedingly rare (such as Moraskorr), double the cost ( 6 per point of DR).
    =Energy Resistance: 1 point per per point of DR vs. 1 type of energy (fire, cold, electricity, acid, or sonic). [Energy immunities seem to have disappeared from the 3.5 MM, or at least have become exceedingly rare]
    =Elemental Subtype (usually Fire or Cold): 8 points (this is now one of the only abilities hat grants energy immunities, and the opposing elemental weakness only happens when saves are failed).
    =Regeneration or Fast Healing: 2 points per level (i.e., 10 points = 5 hp/round)

    Size Increase: 16 points per increase in size category, though this should be carefully restricted by the template type (Giants could go to Huge or bigger, but Humanoids shouldn't get bigger than Large, IMO). The increase grants all of the advantages (and disadvantages) of a size increase: bonuses to Str, Con, reach, and natural armor, penalties to Dex and AC, etc.

    Extra HD: 4 points per extra HD based on racial template (usually d8); these are only available if a size increase has occurred. As per BRCS, the limits are +2 HD max. from Small to Medium, +4 HD ma. from Med. to Large, +8 HD max. from Large to Huge, etc.

    Spell-Like Abilities: 1 point per spell level of power; usable once per day.
    -For multiple daily use, multiply times the number of uses per day (ex.: 3 points per spell level for a power usable 3 times per day);
    -5 points per spell level for a power usable at will, once per round as a standard action (2 points for a 0-level spell-like ability usable at will).
    -Spell level should not exceed 1/2 total character level.

    [Personal Note: BRCS uses these powers as "at will" by default; I think this is drastically overpowered compared to character levels of spellcasters].

    Design Note: All advances should be appropriate to the monster type in its "final form." However, that final form might also evolve into something beyond the base creature type in time (like a giant sized version, for example). I would allow such a "super form" only after all of the base monster traits have developed.

    All design points should be spent each level of monster advancement. However, I would allow points to be spent into undeveloped powers as a "down payment" for the next ability to be developed. For instance, if a creature wants to grow from Large to Huge but has only 5 points left, they could spend 5 points into a size increase this level, and it would cost only 11 points when the next monster level was gained.

    The Monster Ability system in the BRCS is OK, but I would prefer to break it sown into something a bit more exacting so that DM's have some more solid guidelines when designing an awnsheghlien or ersheghlien.
    And even if you keep the system for its simplicity, all I ask is that the Great and Major abilities be given a bit more distinction in the levels of power they represent. Great awnshegh and ershegh should be truly great.

  2. #2
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    The specific blood abilities bloodform and bloodtrait were supposed to be place holders until the the method of defining awn/er shegh was more clearly defined.

    While Gary had a point in the other thread that the rules from Blood Enemies didn't actually require bloodform in order to start the transformation to an awn, I think that most people have adopted that as a premise and just assumed that not listing the abilities under the specific awn descriptions was another in the long line of editorial errors in the original material. So keeping with that assumption isn't really out of bounds here. Another way to look at, and more likely, is that the transformation for a humanoid (including humans) required the bloodform ability while the transformation for animals did not. This reduces the Blood Enemies book down to a reasonable number of editorials concerning this issue.

    The monster class (for lack of a better word) transformation for awn/er definitely needs some work in the BRCS rev since 3.5 put a lot of emphasis on these things and more clearly defined the 'types' and 'subtypes'.

    Once the method of transformation has been better defined in the BRCS then the blood abilities descriptions will be changed to match (longer term project).

    Basically from the original material bloodform-great prompted a greater physical transformation than did bloodform-major (see the true bloodlined awn Gorgon, Spider and Manslayer). The Manslayer clearly had the least physical changes and subsequent corresponding abilities.
    Duane Eggert

  3. #3
    Senior Member RaspK_FOG's Avatar
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    I would like to see how this pulls of...

  4. #4
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 03:21 PM 11/16/2003 +0100, irdeggman wrote:



    >I think that most people have adopted that as a premise and just assumed

    >that not listing the abilities under the specific awn descriptions was

    >another in the long line of editorial errors in the original material. So

    >keeping with that assumption isn`t really out of bounds here.



    I think there are too many in BE for it to be an editorial error. Ten of

    twenty-five. Aside from that, there are other things to indicate that it

    was the intention of the authors that Azrai`s bloodline was all that was

    necessary to become an awnshegh, in texts printed both before and after BE

    came out and in that text itself.



    1. The Ogre from LotHK (published after BE) does not have that blood

    ability either. That could be another error of omission--or it could be

    purposefully because that the blood ability isn`t a requirement to become

    an awnshegh.



    2. In AoC (original boxed-set) awnsheghlien are defined as "any creature

    imbued with the blood of Azrai that traps divine essence within itself

    rather than giving it back to the land." The second half of that sounds

    like the process of spending RP to increase one`s bloodline (which we might

    take into consideration as a factor in the process of transformation into

    awn-/ersheghlien) but the important thing is that Bloodform is not

    mentioned as the means of that process, and "any creature imbued with the

    blood of Azrai" pretty clearly indicates that becoming an awnshegh does not

    require a particular blood ability. That text is written in-character to a

    large extent, so we can take it with a grain of salt, but it`s written by

    the Chamberlain, who is amongst the more knowledgeable of Cerilians, so I

    think we can take that statement as pretty accurate.



    3. It also seems to me to be unlikely that the BE text would make such a

    consistent and repetitive editorial mistake in that it is in that book that

    the Bloodform ability is first described.



    Rather than an editorial error, I think the more likely explanation is the

    other perennial BR issue (really a 2e issue, not just limited to the BR

    materials) unclear or otherwise ambiguous writing.



    >Another way to look at, and more likely, is that the transformation for a

    >humanoid (including humans) required the bloodform ability while the

    >transformation for animals did not. This reduces the Blood Enemies book

    >down to a reasonable number of editorials concerning this issue.



    It`s hard to tell exactly since we don`t know what the origins of some of

    those awnsheghlien are, but depending on how one wants to classify

    Apocolypse, the Kraken and the Leviathan, that could cut the number of

    "errors" by as much as half, along with the Hydra and the Wolf who have

    definitely animal origins.



    Note: The Kraken was probably originally a human (or demi-human or

    humanoid--at least, not an animal.) Unlike other "animal based"

    awnsheghlien, the Kraken`s intelligence score is listed as "genius (19)"

    rather than below average human intelligence. Generally "elevated animal

    awnsheghlien" have higher Int scores than typical animals, but still below

    average human intelligence. Having an intelligence score above the typical

    human maximum would be odd for a creature that was originally an

    animal--and gives us some information on the motive/purpose of that

    creature. It`s not definitive, of course, but it is a generally good

    indication that the awnshegh`s original form was some intelligent creature.



    Still, even if we make that assumption, five or six errors of the same kind

    in the same book.... It seems too consistent to be an inconsistency.



    Even if it is an inconsistency, however, I don`t know if assuming an

    exception for animals who have Azrai`s bloodline is really any more useful

    a ruling than incorporating the idea into the awnsheghlien system in the

    first place. Aside from the fact that the corrupting nature of Azrai`s

    bloodline--not just the Bloodform blood ability--has an important thematic

    basis in BR, I don`t know if the animals are any more or less transformed

    by their bloodline than humans are. Some are drastically changed, others

    aren`t. By itself animal origins doesn`t seem like it should automatically

    grant the equivalent of the Bloodform ability. There are, after all,

    potentially thousands of creatures that might qualify; hydrakin, caracdir,

    the offspring of the Sphinx or the Harpy. I think it might be more prudent

    to make awnsheghlien status a general process rather than to associate it

    with a major or great blood ability.



    >Basically from the original material bloodform-great prompted a greater

    >physical transformation than did bloodform-major (see the true bloodlined

    >awn Gorgon, Spider and Manslayer). The Manslayer clearly had the least

    >physical changes and subsequent corresponding abilities.



    He also appears to be the one of those listed who is actively fighting the

    transformation. He wants to remain "elven" or his whole racial superiority

    thing kind of falls apart. His transformation is less dramatic than other

    awnsheghlien with the same Bloodform(major) ability.



    Major and great versions of that blood ability are certainly a rough guide

    to how transformed the particular awnshegh might be, though some appear to

    be more transformed than others. We might take that as an indication of

    the speed of their transformation in relation to those who do not have that

    blood ability, in combination with other factors (bloodline strength, use

    of blood abilities, etc.) indicated by the BE description of the Bloodform

    ability.



    Gary

  5. #5
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by geeman@Nov 16 2003, 01:23 PM
    >Another way to look at, and more likely, is that the transformation for a

    >humanoid (including humans) required the bloodform ability while the

    >transformation for animals did not. This reduces the Blood Enemies book

    >down to a reasonable number of editorials concerning this issue.



    It`s hard to tell exactly since we don`t know what the origins of some of

    those awnsheghlien are, but depending on how one wants to classify

    Apocolypse, the Kraken and the Leviathan, that could cut the number of

    "errors" by as much as half, along with the Hydra and the Wolf who have

    definitely animal origins.



    Note: The Kraken was probably originally a human (or demi-human or

    humanoid--at least, not an animal.) Unlike other "animal based"

    awnsheghlien, the Kraken`s intelligence score is listed as "genius (19)"

    rather than below average human intelligence. Generally "elevated animal

    awnsheghlien" have higher Int scores than typical animals, but still below

    average human intelligence. Having an intelligence score above the typical

    human maximum would be odd for a creature that was originally an

    animal--and gives us some information on the motive/purpose of that

    creature. It`s not definitive, of course, but it is a generally good

    indication that the awnshegh`s original form was some intelligent creature.

    Gary

    Kraken (from BE) "They say he (Azrai) came to Cerilia by water with corrupted,monstrous sea creatures, and one of these creatures was the Kraken."

    Leviathan (from BE) "The history of the creature is unclear as well. By all reports, it was one of the ffew awnsheghlien that began its creer as a monster, mutating further as the blood of Azrai twisted it."

    So both are pretty much inferred to as originally being monsters and not humanoids.

    As far as bloodform blood ability goes, it wasn't even included in the BRRB as a blood ability, although the Gorgon, Spider, Manslayer and Seadrake were listed as having it on the cardsheets. Again more poor writing/editing in the original books.

    As far as the Manslayer resisting the change, I haven't seen anything written to really indicate that. While he has transformed into a more lawful alignment (contrary to the elven nature) and shuns the elven basic nature of pleasure for himself and instead is dedicated to riding Cerilian of humans I haven't seen anything to indicate that he didn't embrace the changes that occured.
    Duane Eggert

  6. #6
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    irdeggman schrieb:

    > This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

    > You can view the entire thread at:

    > http://www.birthright.net/forums/ind...ST&f=36&t=2099



    > As far as the Manslayer resisting the change, I haven`t seen anything written to really

    indicate that. While he has transformed into a more lawful alignment

    (contrary to the elven

    nature) and shuns the elven basic nature of pleasure for himself and

    instead is dedicated to

    riding Cerilian of humans I haven`t seen anything to indicate that he

    didn`t embrace the

    changes that occured.



    The 2E cardsheet of Rhuobhe Manslayer: "...He can no longer walk in the

    daylight world as he was wont to do before his transformation. He is a

    creature of the twilight now, and he curses those who have the ability

    to enjoy the day..."

    bye

    Michael

  7. #7
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 08:36 PM 11/16/2003 +0100, irdeggman wrote:



    >Kraken (from BE) "They say he (Azrai) came to Cerilia by water with

    >corrupted,monstrous sea creatures, and one of these creatures was the

    >Kraken."



    The description of the Kraken speculates on everything up to and including

    an extraplanar origin, so just about anything is possible. The compelling

    factor here, IMO, is the actual stats, and the rest of the description. He

    could be based on an animal or a monster, but his intelligence score is

    more than a little counter to that as not a lot of monsters are running

    around with genius level intelligence. The transformation of the Kraken

    doesn`t particularly lend itself to becoming more intelligent either, so

    it`s difficult to explain the stat as being part of his awnsheghlien

    nature. Also, his worshippers are difficult to explain if he is based on

    an animal or non-humanoid. None of the other animal-based awnsheghlien

    have something like that going on. There are the druids who support the

    boar and the girl in love with the Wolf, but a whole population is

    something that only very few awnsheghlien have, and none of the

    animal-based ones.



    The Rulebook does say "Some of the awnsheghlien were monsters who served in

    Azrai`s armies. The Kraken, the Spider and the Serpent are examples of

    these." The Spider, however, was a goblin from his description, and the

    Serpent is at least half-man.... Sometimes we run into weird problems with

    pre-3e nomenclature in that things are called "monsters" simply by virtue

    of being creatures who opposed PCs. Later in that same paragraph there`s

    the example of the Boar used to exemplify a bloodline of Azrai having bred

    true, whatever that means. It`s difficult to give much veracity to that

    section of the Rulebook.



    Personally, I think the Kraken is most likely a sahuagin who somehow gained

    a bloodline. At least, that would seem to be the most apt description. A

    sahuagin transforming into a giant sea monster makes more sense than a

    human guilder turning into the Seadrake.



    > Leviathan (from BE) "The history of the creature is unclear as

    > well. By all reports, it was one of the ffew awnsheghlien that began its

    > creer as a monster, mutating further as the blood of Azrai twisted it."

    >

    > So both are pretty much inferred to as originally being monsters and not

    > humanoids.



    The Leviathan I think probably was originally a monster--as the BE text

    indicates--but as noted above the Kraken has several things to indicate

    that he was not.



    > As far as bloodform blood ability goes, it wasn`t even included in the

    > BRRB as a blood ability, although the Gorgon, Spider, Manslayer and

    > Seadrake were listed as having it on the cardsheets. Again more poor

    > writing/editing in the original books.



    I think poor writing/editing are a major factor--or, at least, a lack of

    what would be better classified as "quality control"--but I should point

    out that its not entirely fair to lay all the blame on that. NPC

    characters were a major thing pre-3e, and often those characters had traits

    and abilities beyond/superior to those available to PCs. In 3e NPC status

    has been turned into a sort of "supporting cast" role. Bloodform as a

    blood ability being something reserved for NPCs is probably less drastic in

    BR than entire realms being designated NPC realms, for instance. It

    doesn`t particularly help us much in regards to deciding what the role of

    the requirements might be for awnsheghlien for a D20 version of things, but

    in a system that had a definite preference for certain character races,

    classes, etc. for PCs vs. NPCs that is being translated into a system that

    avoids such preferences it`s probably not fair to attribute to poor writing

    and editing to something what was really a standard of the original rules set.



    Given that a description of Bloodform/Bloodtrait weren`t in the originally

    BRRB (or anywhere else in the BR boxed set) is problematic, and has I think

    been the source of the assumption that a scion needs those blood abilities

    to become an awn-/ersheghlien. We don`t really know what the thinking is

    that went into the situation, though, so I think we`re better off using BE

    take on the situation not only because it`s the source that actually

    relates most directly to the subject, but also because it seems to make for

    a more useful system in the long run.



    >As far as the Manslayer resisting the change, I haven`t seen anything

    >written to really indicate that. While he has transformed into a more

    >lawful alignment (contrary to the elven nature) and shuns the elven basic

    >nature of pleasure for himself and instead is dedicated to riding Cerilian

    >of humans I haven`t seen anything to indicate that he didn`t embrace the

    >changes that occured.



    It doesn`t say anything specific outright in the description of that

    character. The quote that Michael Romes just listed is probably the most

    direct comment. My suggestion that he`s been resisting the change in an

    extrapolation based on other aspects of the character. The evidence I

    would cite for Rhoubhe resisting his change would be:



    1. His basic form has not changed much. Gray skin, white

    eyes. Essentially his physical transformation has turned him into an elven

    Little Orphan Annie (in the day of the week, b/w comic pages.) This is in

    spite of the fact that he`s one of the oldest, more active awnsheghlien

    with one of the highest bloodlines. Consider the amount of his

    transformation in relation to other, much younger awnsheghlien with lower

    bloodline strength and scores who have transformed much more quickly.



    2. It doesn`t appear he has resisted using his blood abilities. That`s one

    of the things the published materials describe as increasing

    transformation, yet Rhoubhe`s transformation is not particularly speeded up

    by that, so some other factor must account for that lack of change.



    3. His philosophy of racial (sidhe) superiority would make a transformation

    away from that form rather repellent to him. It`s already suggested that

    his change from chaotic to neutral (in regards to chaos and law) makes him

    unelven. Rhoubhe`s transformation does not appear to be of the kind that

    elves would find much sympathy for since it is, at the very least, less

    elf-like than others. If he were to transform into a treant, a satyr, or

    some other woodland creature that would at least be more palatable, but his

    strange, black and white thing is in many ways "more human" than another

    form might be.



    4. Along those lines, elves are not so swayed by divinity as other races,

    so it`s unlikely they would be impressed by him taking on _any_ form, even

    if it were inspired by a relationship to Deismaar, so his transformation

    could cost him his leadership role in sidhe society, and along with it most

    of his purpose.



    Gary

  8. #8
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    I agree that Rhuobhe's been rather resilient to transformation. And if elves aren't so swayed by divintiy, then why are all their leaders blooded? Hmmm...

    So if it isn't necessary to have Bloodform to become an awnshegh, why have it as a blood ability at all? I think things should go one of several decisive directions, but not hang about in the muddy middle...

    If any strength bloodline of Azrai can become an awneshegh, then one of 2 things should be true, IMO.
    1) Bloodform isn't necessary to becoming awneshegh, as Gary said. In this case, I'd prefer to simply scrap the blood ability altogether, as it seems extraneous.
    2) Bloodform remains a prerequisite to becoming awnshegh, and is extended to being a Minor, Major, or Great power, with corresponding degrees of power in transformation attached to it.

    My personal preference would go to option 2, but only for the Bloodform (Azrai's derivation) blood ability. One might even make it mandatory, or at least heavily weight it in the random tables, so that Bloodform appears in most bloodlines of Azrai, especially the more potent ones.

    Bloodtrait, on the other hand, I think should be reserved for Great bloodlines of other derivations...the ershegh seem few and far between, but those that do exist are quite potent. But I'm not adamant on this one, just suggesting.

  9. #9
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Osprey@Nov 18 2003, 10:03 AM
    Bloodtrait, on the other hand, I think should be reserved for Great bloodlines of other derivations...the ershegh seem few and far between, but those that do exist are quite potent. But I'm not adamant on this one, just suggesting.
    While it didn't specifically mention bloodform as a prerequisite for transformatin of an awnshegh the BoR did specificaly state that blood trait was required to transform into an ershegh.
    Duane Eggert

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    Going along with what Osprey was saying I suggest having some sort of table of Awneshegh progression. Savage Species created a set of rules for creating a monster class progression, perhaps creatures with the Minor blood ability of Bloodform would have access to 5-6 ecl levels of a creature. Major 5-12 ecl levels and Great 5-20 levels. They would basicly gain monster levels for every step closer they made to being true Awneshegh. Hopefully I explained that clearly

    Secondly, It may not have been the case in the original material that an Awneshegh requires the bloodability of Bloodform. However with the 3e rules it lends itself very well to that requirement especially if taking the ability then allows them to gain levels in a racial class or monster class. It seems to be a good requirement because not all Scions with the bloodline of Azrai are Awneshegh.
    The Former Osric Ilien
    -Blooood!

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