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  1. #1
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    As promised is a (very) brief summary of what I’m working for changes to Chap 2 for the revision:

    Based on the poll results, the 2 most favored proposals were proposal A (revision of the BRCS-playtest) and proposal D (feat like approach) with the other 2 proposals trailing pretty far behind. Even though the polls indicated a slight preference for the feat-like approach I’m inverting the order and making the proposal A version the default one. This is because the feat-like approach can mostly be done with a table and a paragraph while the other one takes a little more writing. It is taking me a while to capture the feat-like approach.

    Rewriting the bloodscore to match the proposal A version, mostly. This decision was based on the other poll in which people basically said they wanted a variant to allow both random and non-random methods of bloodline score generation. When the Birthright.net was last revised the display of this poll’s results seemed to have been hidden or lost, but it was pretty much the following – 7 – random only, 5 – non-random only and 4 - variant for both, so the only way to really interpret this set of results is that both random and non-random methods should be addressed.

    It is being proposed to generate a 7th score at character creation, for those wishing to start as a scion. This accounts for the non-random method variant. The initial ability score is then doubled, so it is no longer an ability. This was done due the interest in maintaining consistency with the 2nd ed bloodline scores for NPCs. I’m going to add a variant to allow all characters to roll 7 abilities and then non-blooded can keep the best 6 for their standard ability scores. This will allow DMs to have something closer to the 10% exp bonus that non-blooded characters received in 2nd ed, but not make it the standard.

    I’m eliminating the scion templates and going with scion class levels. This is more conducive to allowing ECL’d characters to start in a 1st level campaign. I’m basically taking the scion classes from proposal D and tweaking them some.

    I’m inserting words to reflect that this system was designed for a balanced campaign, that is one which is both domain-level and adventure-level based. I’m working on some kind of variant to account for how to modify the scion class levels to account for campaigns that are domain-level or adventure-level based exclusively, where they don’t translate as well.

    I’m adding a variant to allow use of Charisma modifier instead of the bloodline score modifier for DC of blood abilities. A lot of people expressed an interest/desire for one.

    Changing how blood abilities are handled by stating that unless otherwise specified the blood abilities are spell-like instead of they are always spell-like. Adding some other types to the existing blood abilities, very few though. Things like Alertness and Blood Mark are examples of things that will be listed as different. For example Alertness will be an extra-ordinary ability and Blood Mark will provide a circumstance bonus vice a Spell-like ability. The reasoning for the circumstance bonus is that in order to gain the bonus the “viewer” must perceive the blood mark in order to be affected and it basically involves some sort of interaction.

    Changing some of the blood abilities (examples but not all inclusive):

    Alertness – rewriting, since the previous version was the same as the feat and blood abilities should be slightly more powerful than feats.

    Elemental Control – rewriting to change to Summon Monster V vice III. This allows a medium elemental vice a small one. A medium elemental still doesn’t gain any DR, so it is not too powerful.

    Endurance – removed it from the list of blood abilities. It wasn’t in the original rules. Put it as an example of a DM created new blood ability.


    I don't have a good estimate for how long this will take, but I definitely will meet the January commitment that Ian has made.
    Duane Eggert

  2. #2
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    Question: If the Bloodline attribute is doubled to make a bloodline score, what now is the RP reserve limit (compared to 5 x the Bloodline ability score in BRCS)? Is there any limit at all?

    Elemental Control – rewriting to change to Summon Monster V vice III. This allows a medium elemental vice a small one. A medium elemental still doesn’t gain any DR, so it is not too powerful.
    Good call. I already made this change in my own game, glad to see it being revised.

    Perhaps the constant powers should be Supernatural rather than Extraordinary, as all blood powers have a divine energy basis. For example, Resistance, Enhanced Senses, Alertness. This way the powers can't be dispelled, but they can be suppressed in anti-magic zones. Just a thought...

  3. #3
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Osprey@Oct 13 2003, 11:18 AM
    Question: If the Bloodline attribute is doubled to make a bloodline score, what now is the RP reserve limit (compared to 5 x the Bloodline ability score in BRCS)? Is there any limit at all?

    The reserve RP limit is 2 X blood score with an automatic increase in blood score when maintained at the level needed (present blood score plus one - the same as the 2nd ed number) for 2 consecutive domain turns.
    Duane Eggert

  4. #4
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    The reserve RP limit is 2 X blood score with an automatic increase in blood score when maintained at the level needed (present blood score plus one - the same as the 2nd ed number) for 2 consecutive domain turns.
    Is that really the way bloodline was raised in 2e BR? I don't have the books handy at the moment, but I didn't remember it being quite like that.

    So a regent with a bloodline score of 40 needs at least 41 RP for 2 seasons in a row, and then his bloodline score increases? Do they then lose 41 RP when the score goes up?

    That doesna't quite add up somehow...

  5. #5
    Administrator Green Knight's Avatar
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    In 2E you paid RP = new bloodline score (only 1 point increase at a

    time). Limit once per turn.



    -----Original Message-----

    From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion

    [mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On Behalf Of Osprey

    Sent: 13. oktober 2003 22:58

    To: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM

    Subject: Re: Brcs Chap 2 Update [36#2012]



    This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

    You can view the entire thread at:

    http://www.birthright.net/forums/ind...ST&f=36&t=2012



    Osprey wrote:

    The reserve RP limit is 2 X blood score with an automatic

    increase in blood score when maintained at the level needed (present

    blood score plus one - the same as the 2nd ed number) for 2 consecutive

    domain turns.


    Is that really the way bloodline was raised in 2e BR? I don`t have the

    books handy at the moment, but I didn`t remember it being quite like

    that.



    So a regent with a bloodline score of 40 needs at least 41 RP for 2

    seasons in a row, and then his bloodline score increases? Do they then

    lose 41 RP when the score goes up?



    That doesna`t quite add up somehow...



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  6. #6
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    In 2E you paid RP = new bloodline score (only 1 point increase at a
    time). Limit once per turn.
    Ah, that sounds right. Quite a different system than Irdeggman's proposed system, though.

    So Duane, you're proposing this variant as a way to slow down the increase of bloodline scores?

    It still sounds like it needs a few kinks ironed out, IMO.

  7. #7
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Osprey@Oct 13 2003, 04:41 PM
    In 2E you paid RP = new bloodline score (only 1 point increase at a
    time). Limit once per turn.
    Ah, that sounds right. Quite a different system than Irdeggman's proposed system, though.

    So Duane, you're proposing this variant as a way to slow down the increase of bloodline scores?

    It still sounds like it needs a few kinks ironed out, IMO.
    Well, the system was basically that in the BRCS-playtest but has been modified to reflect the new bloodscore range. In 2nd ed it also required a domain action to raise your blood score, using the automatic raising after 2 consecutive seasons frees up this action. Making it an automatic action was the reason for the trade off of only twice a year. The reasoning for maintaining the reserve for two consecutive seasons was to reflect a sort of biological accumulation or reflecting that the body of the scion has to get used to this new level of power before really being able to access it properly.

    The proposed reserve limit (as was done in the BRCS-playtest) was basically to keep regents from maintaining large amounts of RP reserves, something that could easily be done since domain actions are now GB based vice RP based, that is to say it requires GB in order to attempt a domain action, but RP can still be spent to modify it.

    The placement of the ( ) in my previous reply was supposed to refer to the present score +1 RP cost to raise blood line score, and not the entire sentence. Sorry for the confusion and yes the regent loses the RP equivalent of his new score in the process.

    Here's the text (so far):

    A scion may increase his bloodline ability score via usurpation, described later in this chapter. Another method of increasing his bloodline score is through a ceremony of Investiture, described later in this book.
    The remaining method of a scion increasing his bloodline score is through wise rulership. A scion’s bloodline score can be permanently increased by one point by spending a number of RP equal to the character’s target bloodline score, i.e., his current bloodline score plus one. This increase occurs automatically when a scion’s regency reserve exceeds the amount necessary for the increase for two successive domain turns (six months). Such an increase is uncommon (many characters will never realize an increase in bloodline strength). A scion's bloodline cannot increase more than two points per year. A character's bloodline score may decrease if they are forced (or choose to) spend regency points exceeding the points in their current regency reserve. If a scion spends RP beyond their reserve, their bloodline score is permanently reduced by one point. This reduction, however, provides RP equal to the character's previous bloodline score. This process continues as necessary to pay the required RP debt
    Duane Eggert

  8. #8
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    A scion's bloodline cannot increase more than two points per year.
    That used to read (in BRCS), 'A scion's bloodline score cannot increase more than two points per year by this method.' [paraphrased from memory]

    That allowed increase through usurpation. The point is that increasing bloodline through usurpation should be unlimited, IMO (it's the quick and dirty way, and the risky way, to raise one's bloodline), whereas raising it through RP expenditure should be limited.

    Another point: compared to BRCS, the RP reserve limit has now decreased by 20% (I think?). Is this balanced, compared to original rules? I mean, I understand your point based on replacing RP with GB costs, but the required RP costs weren't all that large if I remember rightly. What you're presenting is a much stricter limit on RP reserves. Perhaps 3x bloodline score would be more in keeping with the spirit of the original rules?

    Comparing to BRCS bloodline score, it was 5x current score, now it's 4x current score. With the RP raise requirements, maxed. out regents are now likely to lose RP if they want to raise their bloodline scores, at least if they don't spend RP for 2 seasons.

    Also, little editing note: perhaps include page number references when referring to Usurpation and Investiture (once the page numbers are set, of course).

  9. #9
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Osprey@Oct 14 2003, 10:10 AM
    A scion's bloodline cannot increase more than two points per year.
    That used to read (in BRCS), 'A scion's bloodline score cannot increase more than two points per year by this method.' [paraphrased from memory]

    That allowed increase through usurpation. The point is that increasing bloodline through usurpation should be unlimited, IMO (it's the quick and dirty way, and the risky way, to raise one's bloodline), whereas raising it through RP expenditure should be limited.

    Another point: compared to BRCS, the RP reserve limit has now decreased by 20% (I think?). Is this balanced, compared to original rules? I mean, I understand your point based on replacing RP with GB costs, but the required RP costs weren't all that large if I remember rightly. What you're presenting is a much stricter limit on RP reserves. Perhaps 3x bloodline score would be more in keeping with the spirit of the original rules?

    Comparing to BRCS bloodline score, it was 5x current score, now it's 4x current score. With the RP raise requirements, maxed. out regents are now likely to lose RP if they want to raise their bloodline scores, at least if they don't spend RP for 2 seasons.

    Also, little editing note: perhaps include page number references when referring to Usurpation and Investiture (once the page numbers are set, of course).
    Nope, it read "A scion's bloodline cannot increase more than two points per year." in the playtest document.

    You gave a good point about not including usurpation (and investiture) in this limit - even though everyone seemed to miss that in the playtest document.

    As far as the 2X versus the older 5X (from the playtest) I tried to find a multiplier that was easy to use, X3 yielding what I thought was far too great a number. Raising bloodscore would not deplete the regent. For example a regent with a blood score of 30 wants to raise his blood score to 31. Let's say he gains 28 RP per season from holding and the like. He needs to maintain a 31 RP balance for two consecutive seasons, which means that after the first season (it would require at least a season to build up a bank to build from) let's say he banked half his RP gains so at the start of the 2nd season he has 14 +28 = 42 RP in his bank. He can spend 11 RP during that season and not have to lower his reserve below the minimal amount. The next season he gains another 2, so if he spent the 11 and only carried over 31 he would start that season with 31 + 28 = 59 RP of which the regent could spend all 28 gained that season. At the end of that season the regent's bloodscore would increase to 31 so he would start the next season being able to collect 31 RP per season instead of 28.

    It is not supposed to be easy to raise a regent's blood score. The usurpation rules of the BRCS - playtest made it much easier to gain from killing a scion than the old 2nd ed rules did.

    In all the campaigns I've run and played in (about 5 different versions) no player had ever been able to raise his PC's bloodscore via wise rule. If they had the RP (which most did after a while) they couldn't afford to take a domain action to accomplish it. They usually had more pressing matters to be concerned with.
    Duane Eggert

  10. #10
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    I thought it cost X4 the current bloodline score to raise the ability.

    For a regent with a bloodscore of 30 would need 120 RP to raise it to 31. That is over a year of saving RP if he only gains 28 RP a turn.

    Even lowering it to X2 would mean he needs 60 RP. In that case, I could see in a peaceful time a regent saving enough to raise the score once a year.

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