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  1. #1
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    > Sure its balanced, but it offends my sense that scions should be no less
    > strong, smart, or tough than commoners, despite having blood abilities.
    On
    > the contrary, I think the advantages of aristocratic backround, blood
    > powers, and money should give you greater advantages to aquire skills, if
    > not ability scores. Now, I`ll accept that a character with advantages may
    > not be as challenged by some encounters, but I`m against having scions
    > balanced by making them weaker in terms of skills or attributes. They are
    > the best, the divinely favored, and the privlidged.

    Hear, Hear.

    *Loud round of applause.*

    While I am strongly against the +3 ECL, I despise the fact that the Scions
    are forced between the choice of having say an awsome CHA, INT or BLD. The
    Blood as the 7th ability score is a broken system. Where did this come
    from? Doom`s conversion? I understand that Dr. Doom is on the d20 team
    that wrote the rough draft of the system, but why did his homebrew hack get
    made the official system? I am against any homebrew rules making it into
    the "official" (I am really beginning to come around to the line of thinking
    that this entire Official BR stuff is simply an ego trip.) unless they are
    solid rules.

    The revised and expanded court descriptions are a homebrewed item that is
    solid enough to merit making the final cut. The Blood as a 7th ability
    score is not. Not only do you penalize the Scions by adding ECLs to them,
    now you force them to dedicate one of their better stat rolls to the 7th
    ability score, there by making them weaker. Whats next? Make them buy
    Blood Powers with all their feat slots?

    If you want to "BALANCE" the inferior to the superior why not take the 2e
    route and give someone a bonus when playing a nonblooded character, instead
    of penalizing 95% of all characters that are rolled up in Birthright?

    -Anakin Miller
    -------------------------
    "What was sundered, shall be remade.
    What was stolen, shall be avenged. "
    - Engraved on the Crown of Diemed

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    Who are you to speak to me of loneliness, you who have not suffered as I have suffered. My father was lord of the Andu, ruler of a million souls, but not once did he ever claim me as his son. All those years I waited for a single word from him, a simple acknowledgment of my birthright. But, not even on his death bed did he claim me as his. So do not speak to me of your loneliness, you who have never been as alone as I have been all my life.

    - Prince Raesene Andu, -2 HC.

  2. #2
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    >While I am strongly against the +3 ECL, I despise the fact that the Scions
    >are forced between the choice of having say an awsome CHA, INT or BLD. The
    >Blood as the 7th ability score is a broken system. Where did this come
    >from? Doom`s conversion? I understand that Dr. Doom is on the d20 team
    >that wrote the rough draft of the system, but why did his homebrew hack get
    >made the official system? I am against any homebrew rules making it into
    >the "official" (I am really beginning to come around to the line of thinking
    >that this entire Official BR stuff is simply an ego trip.) unless they are
    >solid rules.

    Anakin,

    You have a lot of good ideas and I agree with a lot of your opinions but I
    think we should all remember that the BR team members have spent a lot of
    their personal time and effort to produce this document. They don`t get
    paid for this and they won`t get paid for it - and it`s unfair to say that
    they`re doing this just because of ego. They are just trying to do the best
    they can... any of us that try to produce a conversion will be criticized
    just as harshly.

    Remember also that this is the 0.0 first draft - irdeggman has repeatedly
    said that nothing is "official" or "finalized" yet. Travis Doom came up
    with a detailed system and while I don`t like the system, it is not a bad
    thing to include in the original draft because it gives us something to
    critique in the hope of finding a better system.

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  3. #3
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    Yes, I understand that the "volunteers" have dedicated their beloved
    personal time and what not to this project. But the simple fact that they
    volunteer to do this should not suddenly become the *Holy Shield* of can do
    no wrongs.

    The d20 draft was written by a small tight nit group that was chosen by
    invitation only from a tiny peer base. The BR Online community was not
    taken into consideration when the "Offical d20 Group was formed and through
    out the design process of the Core Rules Document." Anytime questions where
    asked, the party line was we`re working on it, it is great, but you can`t
    know anything about it till its ready for release.

    The Official Rules as they currently stand include riduculious homebrewed
    rules that have no basis in 2e BR or core 3e d20/DnD. But these are going
    to be the "official" d20 BR rules. Everyone seems to think that because
    this group formed and wrote the "Official" d20 Birthright document that,
    everyone should be kissing their feet.

    The rules as they currently stand are broken. They doubly penalize the core
    concept for any birthright campaign. I realize that some people do play
    unblooded characters, but the vast majority of characters in any Birthright
    Campaign are going to be blooded. Instead of offering a small incentive to
    people who are willing to play an inferior concept, the ruleset now
    penalizes people who do not play such a concept. All in the name of
    "Balance".

    All the while the online community tears into the document. A slew of
    complaints have been leveled at the document and the only major response
    from the "Official" design team is a set of polls designed and implimented
    for the users of the Birthright.net Forums. Alot of us DON`T use the forums
    and probally never will, but the design team has already stated that unless
    you go to Birthright.net and use the polls they have established, your
    opinion will not count in the final draft of the core rules.

    This is not how a fan based community revival should be handled. The
    DarkSun fan community has been involved with DS3e everystep of the way. Yes
    it has taken longer to reach final draft than this BR d20 will, but the fans
    have been instrumental in the design and development of the final product.
    Their opinions and suggests have been woven into the product. You cannot
    even begin to make the statements that the same holds true for the
    "Official" BR d20.

    I`ld be willing to wager, that no matter how many complaints and arguments
    are levied against the 7th stat (BLD.), it will remain in the document and
    will be the "Official" d20 BR way of gauging Bloodline strength.

    -Anakin Miller
    -------------------------
    "What was sundered, shall be remade.
    What was stolen, shall be avenged. "
    - Engraved on the Crown of Diemed

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    with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.
    Who are you to speak to me of loneliness, you who have not suffered as I have suffered. My father was lord of the Andu, ruler of a million souls, but not once did he ever claim me as his son. All those years I waited for a single word from him, a simple acknowledgment of my birthright. But, not even on his death bed did he claim me as his. So do not speak to me of your loneliness, you who have never been as alone as I have been all my life.

    - Prince Raesene Andu, -2 HC.

  4. #4
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    This is starting to go the way of the flaming posts of the December 2002 to Jan 2003 time period.

    It is counterproductive, and basically personnally insulting. See the other thread for Doom's comments (and others voicing theirs).

    Let's get back to the project and not use personal attacks as a means of making a point. Generally I dismiss points that are tied to personal attacks as being unworthy of attention. If the person can't make a point without attacking someone on the personal level then . . . . Oh well.

    There are polls out there for whether we should use the 7th ability, whether we should use some sort of scion template and whether we should use some type of ECL modifier.

    When I posted the polls I mentioned that those who only use the mail listing would have to use the boards to vote. Basically it is the only way to quantify the data.
    Duane Eggert

  5. #5
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    Anakin,

    in some points I agree with you. However, one has to consider the following aspects working on a conversion:

    1. Try to stay close to the 2. Edition rules
    2. Use the possibilities given by the 3. Edition and publish a conversion with a 3. Edition
    flair
    (3. Make improvements of the game system)

    It is not easy to find the right way in-between.

    I agree that some people here have a very self-confidently opinion, that there is a "hard core" of designer which are convinced of their work and that it is hard to push something different through. I also see that the voting is not really democratic, since the number of voting members is too small compared to the mentioned "hard core". IMO statements like " this is counterproductive" are also wrongly at this place. Things have to be discussed.

    Personally I find the 7. ability not so bad (it violates the 1. aspect, but ...).
    my purpose is now to lead you into the Pallace where you shall have a clear and delightful view of all those various objects, and scattered excellencies, that lye up and down upon the face of creation, which are only seen by those that go down into the Seas, and by no other....

  6. #6
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Some reasons for using the 7th ability score for blood abilites (not in order of importance):

    1) It is a relatively easy concept to follw. Paralleling the normal ability scores and is hence more intuitively understandable. (This is not something that can't be changed as it is only an understanding thing and not a mechanics driver, although for 1st time players it would be a great benefit)

    2) It makes it easy to apply a "modifier" to adjust the DC of blood abilities. (This is by far the most significant issue. If we decide to use a different concept for the blood score than we will still need to come up with some way to make a ready-to-use adjustment for DCs based on strength)

    3) It gives those who wish to play a non-scion something to make a trade off with. (Many people have talked about running "split" campaigns where a player has 2 (or more) PCs to run with one of them being a scion/regent and the other not)

    4) It will help to eliminate (or reduce) the need for DM's fiat when trying to have players start as regents. (The question to ask of any system is how often do I have to use DM's fiat to make things work? If the answer is that it is commonly used then the system is inherently broke and should be adjusted.)

    5) By using an ability score (and the bonus spells advancement system) it is relatively easy to "create" a semi-universal mechanic to determine the amount (and strength) of blood abilities a scion is eligible to have.

    Of all the reasons I listed number 2 is far and away the most significant and any system used needs to address it.
    Duane Eggert

  7. #7
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Azrai,
    My comment on "counterproductive" was refering to personal attacks, which are always counterproductive, not to the discussion of the viability of the system or of any other system. Discussion is usually a productive thing as long as it is not personal but professional in nature.:)
    Duane Eggert

  8. #8
    Site Moderator Ariadne's Avatar
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    Anakin,

    you seem to be very diappointed with the 3rd ED material. Yes, there are several "new" things integrated, some completely different and about some WE STILL MUST DISCUSS. But: It might be better to specify problems instead banishing the whole product. IMO this is very good in general and the BR D20 team has spend about 3 years in creating it. If you're unsattisfied with the 7th ability, I can understand this. You still needn't to take all presented 3rd ED rules in YOUR campaign. Take what you want and cancel the rest. If you want the 2nd ED blood rules, stay with them...
    May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!

  9. #9
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    On Mon, 17 Mar 2003, irdeggman wrote:
    > Some reasons for using the 7th ability score for blood abilites (not
    > in order of importance):
    >
    > 1) It is a relatively easy concept to follw. Paralleling the normal
    > ability scores and is hence more intuitively understandable. (This is
    > not something that can`t be changed as it is only an understanding
    > thing and not a mechanics driver, although for 1st time players it
    > would be a great benefit)

    Except it`s a bad parallel, and will result in thinking of it wrong,
    because bloodline is very little like an ability score. It`s much more
    variable than ability scores, it can`t be buffed or drained by spells, not
    everyone has one, it can`t be raised by spending your ability increase on
    it at every 4th level. It`s not an ability score at all.

    > 2) It makes it easy to apply a "modifier" to adjust the DC of blood
    > abilities. (This is by far the most significant issue. If we decide to
    > use a different concept for the blood score than we will still need to
    > come up with some way to make a ready-to-use adjustment for DCs based
    > on strength)

    DCs didn`t vary by bloodline strength before. But blood abilities are
    spell-like abilities of the character, and the normal method for setting
    DCs for those in 3e is to treat them as spells cast by a sorceror of the
    appropriate level. This is how dragons, fiends, etc set DCs for
    spell-like abilities. So a blood ability which replicated a 7th level
    spell would have a DC of 10 + spell level (7) plus charisma modifier.
    This could be modified by derivation- scions of Anduiras might use wisdom
    instead of charisma, for example.

    > 3) It gives those who wish to play a non-scion something to make a
    > trade off with. (Many people have talked about running "split"
    > campaigns where a player has 2 (or more) PCs to run with one of them
    > being a scion/regent and the other not)

    That`s what ECLs or experience costs or whatever for blood abilities are
    for.

    > 4) It will help to eliminate (or reduce) the need for DM`s fiat when
    > trying to have players start as regents. (The question to ask of any
    > system is how often do I have to use DM`s fiat to make things work?
    > If the answer is that it is commonly used then the system is
    > inherently broke and should be adjusted.)

    This reason is meaningless- how is it `DM`s Fiat` for the bloodline to be
    a separate number like it was originally, but not if it`s an ability
    score?

    > 5) By using an ability score (and the bonus spells advancement system)
    > it is relatively easy to "create" a semi-universal mechanic to
    > determine the amount (and strength) of blood abilities a scion is
    > eligible to have.

    The mechanic for determining blood abilities will be equally arbitrary, no
    matter what the final scale for bloodline scores is. The chart from 2nd
    edition is just as valid as `bonus spell advancement`.
    --
    Communication is possible only between equals.
    Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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  10. #10
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    Originally posted by DanMcSorley
    Except it`s a bad parallel, and will result in thinking of it wrong,
    because bloodline is very little like an ability score. It`s much more
    variable than ability scores, it can`t be buffed or drained by spells, not
    everyone has one, it can`t be raised by spending your ability increase on
    it at every 4th level. It`s not an ability score at all.
    In the current document, it can be increased every 4 levels, but it may not remain as an ability score. That was just one method that someone came up with, and it works. Most of the other methods suggested don't work especially well, so we're testing out this one and others. If you have a better system, then by all means, suggest it.

    DCs didn`t vary by bloodline strength before. But blood abilities are
    spell-like abilities of the character, and the normal method for setting
    DCs for those in 3e is to treat them as spells cast by a sorceror of the
    appropriate level. This is how dragons, fiends, etc set DCs for
    spell-like abilities. So a blood ability which replicated a 7th level
    spell would have a DC of 10 + spell level (7) plus charisma modifier.
    This could be modified by derivation- scions of Anduiras might use wisdom
    instead of charisma, for example.
    DCs didn't exist before, remember. Not all blood abilities are spell-like abilities, some are supernatural abilities. Also, most of the monster special ability DCs are determine by 10 + 1/2 HD + Ability mod (usually Con or Cha).

    I do like the idea of different derivations favoring a different score, though.

    The mechanic for determining blood abilities will be equally arbitrary, no
    matter what the final scale for bloodline scores is. The chart from 2nd
    edition is just as valid as `bonus spell advancement`.
    Yes, but some of us would rather have the mechanics meshed into the existing system, with some tweaks and stretching of the system, not a separate system tacked on.
    I walk this fine thread...

    Mourn

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