Taelinri -- The Game Mechanics

[AndrewTall]

Let me first address this mistaken idea that all canon material is from a human perspective. It's not. Only the Atlas is, and that's pretty impartial when you read it, having been supposedly written by Caliedhe Dosiere, and matching up well with the DM-specific material in Ruins of Empire and the main book.

The question often raised is how a human author can write from anything other than a human perspective. I'd see all PS's in particular as having been written from a fairly strong perspective (generally that of the local rulers) with all the setting sourcebooks being written from a local perspective (i.e. each romanticising the cultures ideals and overlooking their flaws) to one degree or another.

My personal view is that the elves have mixed views on humans, some see the races potential (exemplified by rare folk such as Torele) and see the current fascination with industry, massive cities, etc as a phase humans are going through; others see the destructive ability of goblins (proven over many millennia incapable of true understanding) combined with a more disciplined focus that makes them dangerous, others probably don't think about humans at all. I see the gheallie sidhe as falling into the second category - they <know> that humans by their nature are destructive and unable to co-exist peacefully. The bulk probably fall into the last camp - with an elven approach to individuality meaning that they will at least initially judge humans as individuals.

That said PS Tuornen is quite clear that boys go collecting water in severe peril near Rhoubhe border, although he is noted as raiding fairly rarely (possibly simply as he sees no point in killing peasants since it simply spares another peasant from starving to death they all breed so fast). I'd see vicous tricks, 'shaming' attacks and attacks against tools, etc as more common than actual raids to kill - particularly of children - for most elves who do feel the need to act against humans.

The other core books are clearly written from a DM-information perspective. They are intended to be the standard for the setting. If you want to stray from it, that's fine, but don't pretend that something inconsistent with RoE and the rule book is supposed to be the standard position for Birthright!

I'd see them as very strongly written from the player perspective - aside from the Vos which carefully split the player and DM sections.

It's been 2 generations since Deismaar (from the Atlas, and the fact that Rhuobhe is Fhileraene's great-grandfather; he was Ibelcoris's grandfather). While there are certainly some elves still alive from before humans came, Rhuobhe seems to have few peers still alive from his generation--I can think of none mentioned in the texts. Most elves alive were most likely born after Deismaar.

Well, very few individuals of any race are mentioned. Rhoubhe's three hundred are all noted as his peers at Deismaar, I can't see why less violent elves would have died off more swiftly, look at Cwmb Bheinn which simply warded for the 1500 years without any border issues at all. I'd expect that most elves are thus pre-Deismaar - one reason for why the elves are so slow to change.

Oh, and I don't think humans are interested in genocide in general either. They merely want to increase their land. Elf-hating extremists are even less common among humans as human-hating extremists are among elves.

I'd expect that humans are far more prone to looking around at their surroundings than the rather introspective elves - meaning they likely think about elves more than elves think about humans. The elves are noted in the Rjuvik sourcebook as not even noticing the Rjurik until the Rjurik were fairly widespread. Add in Human clerics preaching against the elves (wizards! Allies of Azrai! Godless Heathens!) and humans seeing the elven forests as empty lands to be claimed by whoever wills it (unless the elves have some claim to their lands under imperial law/etc) and the desire to increase the humans land will inevitably lead to conflict on all borders - and only a strong border will turn them back.

That said I don't see many of the races as deeply into genocide - any race with a true desire for genocide will struggle to survive long term as the attitude leads to very final wars, basically unless both sides in a conflict can agree peace terms that are survivable the war simply doesn't stop until both are exhausted or one is annihilated.

I'd strongly expect given the spread of the empire that after Deismaar the elves and humans reached some sort of truce, that the Anuirean empire - for whatever reason - chose to recognise elven (and for that matter dwarven) sovereignty over their lands (otherwise traffic with the Rjuvik and Khinasi would have been pretty hard) and that this peace would have involved at least some diplomatic exchange over a prolonged period. Basically leading the bulk of the people on both sides to 'move on' from the existing mutual hatred. That said the empire didn't clear the spiderfell, or Thurazor either...

[Rowan]

The question often raised is how a human author can write from anything other than a human perspective. I'd see all PS's in particular as having been written from a fairly strong perspective (generally that of the local rulers) with all the setting sourcebooks being written from a local perspective (i.e. each romanticising the cultures ideals and overlooking their flaws) to one degree or another.
...
I'd see them as very strongly written from the player perspective - aside from the Vos which carefully split the player and DM sections.

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say. If you are claiming that the main rulebooks are biased because the writers were human, I'd say there's no point in any of what we're discussing because none of us are elves and they're not real anyway.

The main rulebooks were written AS rulebooks--to be the standard, to represent the base unbiased situation of Birthright. Even if the Ruins of Empire entries as supposed to be focused on local opinion (I don't see much variation in their tone and presentation, so I don't really agree with that line of reasoning), keep in mind that the Tuarhievel and Sielwode entries would then seem to indicate the local perspective of those peoples, and those perspectives are less anti-human and less alien than some here are suggesting.

I don't have the Player's Secrets books, but I consider them lower on the list of BR standards than Ruins of Empire and the original boxed set, as do, I think, most people here, having accepted a hierarchy of canonicity. They seem to be more "optional" even than the rest of the system (and yes, all RPG's are optional, but Core books tend to be the more solid starting point upon which all players and GM's tend to agree unless they make explicit changes).

I don't disagree with what you've said about elves elsewhere in your article, except that while Rhuobhe's 300 companions may be pre-Deismaar, if his realm is 4-5000+, and if 2 generations have passed since Deismaar, I think that still indicates that most elves are post-Deismaar. Perhaps 30% are pre-Deismaar still, which is a huge minority, but the generational difference alone suggests that less than a third are pre-Deismaar. I tend to think that less than 10% are pre-Deismaar, personally, many having died during that time and many in conflict since. I don't think most elves, ever since the goblin rebellions, expect to live many thousands of years.

[AndrewTall]

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say. If you are claiming that the main rulebooks are biased because the writers were human, I'd say there's no point in any of what we're discussing because none of us are elves and they're not real anyway.

More that the level of detail provided in books with limited space inevitably led to short cuts, and that when we fill out the blanks and create a richer, more detailed world those short cuts can cause issues. For example I'd strongly disagree with the concept of feudal nobility being functional in an elven setting of quasi-immortals - yet several sources describe elven 'nobles' - that could however easily be a feudal human view of how the elves 'must' organise themselves since that is the only social scenario the observing humans really know. (Much like the idea of romany kings)

The main rulebooks were written AS rulebooks--to be the standard, to represent the base unbiased situation of Birthright. Even if the Ruins of Empire entries as supposed to be focused on local opinion (I don't see much variation in their tone and presentation, so I don't really agree with that line of reasoning), keep in mind that the Tuarhievel and Sielwode entries would then seem to indicate the local perspective of those peoples, and those perspectives are less anti-human and less alien than some here are suggesting.

Well, by my reckoning we have 1 rulebook, and a number of sourcebooks, the latter being aimed at both players and DM's to give flavour to the campaign. While enjoying them very much the political realism is perhaps slightly less probable than I, and others would like (although I think I am the only one concerned about failures in evolutionary theory in the generation of race archtypes and gods, the economic impact of magic and so on and the non-recognition of thermodynamics in the magic system)

I'd see all the RoE entries as written from an Anuirean viewpoint to one degree or another in the sense that an honest upper-middle class Anuirean would consider is a 'proper' assessment of his realm - although a non-Anuirean, peasant, guildsman, etc might well disagree about the prevalence of honour and justice that they see in the realm. Similarly the other sourcebooks would gloss over things that the 'goodly' folk of the various realms would rather not discuss - going aviking, clan warfare and rivalry amongst the Rjurik, the 'face' as opposed to 'honour' side to Sayim, etc. I don't like a game to be as 'grey' as some but I do like to have some grey - both to show the PC's how easy it would be to slip and give NPC's interesting flaws.

I don't have the Player's Secrets books, but I consider them lower on the list of BR standards than Ruins of Empire and the original boxed set, as do, I think, most people here, having accepted a hierarchy of canonicity. They seem to be more "optional" even than the rest of the system (and yes, all RPG's are optional, but Core books tend to be the more solid starting point upon which all players and GM's tend to agree unless they make explicit changes).

I agree, the PS's vary tremendously with PSoT at one end and, say, Stjordvik at the other. They are in general fairly reasonable reads though and worth the cost of the download.

I don't disagree with what you've said about elves elsewhere in your article, except that while Rhuobhe's 300 companions may be pre-Deismaar, if his realm is 4-5000+, and if 2 generations have passed since Deismaar, I think that still indicates that most elves are post-Deismaar. Perhaps 30% are pre-Deismaar still, which is a huge minority, but the generational difference alone suggests that less than a third are pre-Deismaar. I tend to think that less than 10% are pre-Deismaar, personally, many having died during that time and many in conflict since. I don't think most elves, ever since the goblin rebellions, expect to live many thousands of years.

The realm description simply describes his companions as having been with him since Deismaar and as others have noted appears to suggest that his L2 province only has a tiny population...

My thoughts on lifespan are that elven mortality is trivial barring war - and several realms ward almost constantly making war unknown. Cwmb Bheinn for example did not have significant contact with the outside world between Deismar and the Raven's re-emergence, indicating that nearly every elf alive at Deismaar should still be alive - similarly with Innishiere. Given the low populations of those realms that indicates a very low birth-rate in the elves and thus primarily an elderly population - if only 1/3 are pre-Deismaar then unless 90% of the elven population died in the wars against humanity the elven woods should be seething - remember that they held 5-10 times as much land before the human migration, and if 90%+ of the elves died then surely Rhoubhe's attitude would be the norm with the rest mainly broken to submission / denial - not the position I see where most elves do not have strong feelings about humans. Tuarheviel I'd note is described as one of the most open elven realms, the Sielwode as closed - only Llua and Tuar Annwyn are described as really hostile to humans (rhuobhe aside of course).

Given that the elves appear to have survived against the goblins without being pushed back until the humans arrived I'd take the view that the goblins were never a significant threat to the elves - large bands could be readily avoided and in turn avoided the major elven cities, smaller bands exterminated without real issue (or need for a king...) it was only the humans who were able to push the elves back into the surviving enclaves that seriously weakened the race.

That said my view is contradicted directly by the details of elven rulers in a few sources (mostly PSoT) which indicate brief reigns of only a few centuries for most rulers. I maintain however that if most elves were dying after only a few centuries (the equivalent of early 20's by human standards) then I'd expect a major social impact on the race - and far more changes to them since Deismaar.

[Rowan]

Just one point I'd like to make about the elven populations. If two generations have passed since Deismaar, and even if elves only produce 1 offspring per couple, then the simple notation of a "generation" would indicate almost a 50% increase in population. Unless very few elves are in the reproducing generation and elves are then having offspring as seldom as once in a lifetime or once every 1,000 years (in which case there are virtually no elf brother-sister relationships), elven populations with low mortality would still be mostly made up of post-Deismaar elves, and those populations could grow pretty significantly over that period of time.

I believe that in order to keep elven population in check and still have reasonable rates of reproduction, elven mortality must be high enough that elves can be said to have an average life expectancy. I tend to think that life expectancy is about 1,000 years (arbitrary, but the numbers could be built to support different average life expectancies). That would mean that some elves would die before that, and others might still be 10,000 years old. I think Sidhe Brelachiem's 14,000 year reign is an anomaly, because that kind of lifespan in the context of almost any reproduction will just overwhelm humans eventually because of exponential growth.

[ryancaveney]

I believe that in order to keep elven population in check and still have reasonable rates of reproduction, elven mortality must be high enough that elves can be said to have an average life expectancy.

I like really low elven mortality, and like average lifespans exceeding tens of thousands of years. That is one reason I have enthusiastically adopted Kenneth's suggestion that elves reproduce magically rather than physically, with the modification that what produces more elves is not existing elves, but rather existing concentrations of mebhaighl, which do not increase directly with elven populations. This gives a nicely constant number of "births" per unit time, without any of the complications of exponential growth, and keeps populations relatively constant without needing high death rates.

[Rowan]

If no sexual reproduction occurs, are there any family relationships? How do half-elves come about? Why male and female elves?

Why don't elves spring up from all provinces with source potential of 1 or higher? Does it make a difference if those source potentials are tapped or untapped? What about caerbheglien?

Like I've said before, the idea of alien elves are intriguing--I have created one setting where they are extraordinarily alien--but I generally don't go too far afield in Birthright because it seems to me that so much would need to be changed in the setting to accomodate it--that's what my questions are directed at. I might be willing to do that in a house game with players who aren't so familiar with BR, but not a PBEM.

[ryancaveney]

If no sexual reproduction occurs, are there any family relationships?

Yes. Love and sex and property-sharing partnerships still occur, but children do not result. This makes elven culture actually rather easier to handle, because it means you don't have to deal with siblings separated by thousands of years in age, or the problem of inheritance in a society where almost no property-owner ever dies.

How do half-elves come about?

The first ones were made magically. New ones come from either that procedure, sexual reproduction involving an existing half-elf, or magical conversion of humans or other species.

Why male and female elves?

Because most other species, trees included, have two sexes.

Why don't elves spring up from all provinces with source potential of 1 or higher?

Because you need a greater density to make an elf -- perhaps you need a 7 or higher. Someone (Lord Rahvin?) suggested that low source potentials cause the formation of half-elven spirits, which are then born into human or other non-elven bodies as changelings.

Does it make a difference if those source potentials are tapped or untapped?

Certainly no problem if tapped by an elf. I haven't bothered to decide what happens if a non-elf controls so strong a source, because I can't really see it happening in practice.

What about caerbheglien?

I think those should definitely be spawning all sorts of faerie creatures. There's no reason the bigger ones shouldn't generate full-blown Sidhelien.

I generally don't go too far afield in Birthright because it seems to me that so much would need to be changed in the setting to accomodate it

I ended up with all my wacky notions about elves because I wanted to avoid changing the setting! I think all the stuff it does tell us (immortality in particular, especially when coupled with an absence of overpopulation) cries out for changes in game metaphysics to explain how the backstory could possibly be true.

[Rowan]

What interests me is that there are so many different absolute moralities which have been advocated over the years.

Different levels of knowledge, understanding, or theories about one absolute morality.

I never claimed that all people are attracted to fantasy because of its moral components (though even the atheistic author of the Golden Compass was). I only stated that a huge variety of experts and authors have recognized that these traits exist strongly in fantasy and are a major reason for fantasy's huge growth and mass appeal.

As much as I'd love to get into the debate with you about absolute morality and ethics, this isn't really the forum for it. Suffice it to say that your characterization of moral philosophy seems to me to have suffered from poor teachers, insufficient investigation, or just denial. Even faith for many if not most people stems from a serious and ruthless logical, rational search for truth. Moral philosophy certainly does--heck, utilitarianism explicitly removes the judgment of the "good" of an action until viewing its consequences.

As for the elves, I think you're missing some serious game implications.

I questioned sexual reproduction and family relationships because with spontaneous generation of elves, there are no parent-child, sibling, or wider relationships. There is no evolutionary purpose for sex or the sexes; male/female sexes exist throughout much of nature because they rely on sexual reproduction. The sexes do not exist apart from sexual reproduction in nature--and there are great numbers of species that don't have sexes in nature, so why should the elves have sexes if they don't reproduce sexually? It would be a major departure from their closeness to nature and the "natural order."

Because you need a greater density to make an elf -- perhaps you need a 7 or higher.

If this is so, the implication that follows is that elves have no use for terrain other than forests, mountains, and swamps. If they care about the propagation their species (at least in similar fashion to all natural species), they'd probably try just as much to push dwarves from the mountains for their influence on mebhaigl as push humans out of the forests. Further, they'd have no problem letting the humans have all of the other terrain types, needing only to defend their forests--which as several of us have shown in the Battle Elves thread, they can do quite handily.

It is quite possible for humans to control sources of level 7 or higher, especially if they reduce the province level. Would elves go on crusade against these humans? Would any province of level 7 or higher start spontaneously generating an elven population? If those elves are formed as adults and outside of families or community in these isolated locales, how do they learn anything? Might they end up being "raised" by humans or other sentient creatures, thereby becoming impressioned by their traits and culture?

[geeman]

I have no problem with the inclusion of magic in the process of elven
reproduction. In fact, that seems to make a lot of sense to me given
their theme in the setting. However, I don`t think the process
should be entirely magical, or even so magical as to make it
unrecognizable as being fundamentally biological if viewed by someone
without magical powers. Nothing in the passion of the elves, their
clearly physical relationships with humans, and their role in the
natural environment leads me to suspect their reproduction should be
the equivalent of magical test tube babies. Rather, I`d borrow a bit
of irdeggman`s thinking on elves (albeit he often means in
drastically different areas) and suggest that the Sidhe reproduce
only in a magical environment rather than through some sort of
magical process. It`s something in the land itself. That fits
better into the theme of their decline, because as the magical
environment is destroyed so is their ability to reproduce.

Gary

[kgauck]

I generally don't go too far afield in Birthright because it seems to me that so much would need to be changed in the setting to accomodate it--that's what my questions are directed at. I might be willing to do that in a house game with players who aren't so familiar with BR, but not a PBEM.

I ended up with all my wacky notions about elves because I wanted to avoid changing the setting! I think all the stuff it does tell us (immortality in particular, especially when coupled with an absence of overpopulation) cries out for changes in game metaphysics to explain how the backstory could possibly be true.

I think this problem is caused because many of us fill in the gaps (missing information) with normal assumptions (they are like us) rather than fantastic information.

If you fill in the gaps with normal assumptions, they you have to tend to regarding some of the text as mere color, because if you do the reverse, and say how to do I explain some of these passages in light of the rest of the text, you are drawn to filling in the blanks with fantastic explanations about how all of these things match. This is because the passages in question, elven immortality, their magical natures, their stunning beauty, the experiences of men with elves, fantastic answers are more sensible than the normal assumptions.