Magical impact on land usage

[irdeggman]

In that release (unofficial as it was never released,

This is a false statement.

Just because a product was not "sold" as a hard cover does not make it "unofficial".

It was "released" as a "free" web site product from WotC - that makes it "official" - as anything produced by WotC is considered "official".

The "free" information also included "Book of Regency" and the novel "the Falcon and the Wolf".

[irdeggman]

I do have a question though. What deities did the Sie worship????

Also where did you dig them up, pg # and source please?

They didn't worship anyone - they were "innate" casters. Information is found in that "unofficial " source, Bloodspawn, page 27.

The Sie don’t even warrant a full monster work up in Blood Spawn, and I want to see if they fit into the dynamics of the high powered magic that is part of what brought about the Shadow Plane/World phenomenon. It has been years since I read some of the material, and to be honest the background story is pretty dry reading.

No full write up because they don't exist anymore. They cannot exist as long as the elves and seelie faeries do since they are the two halves of the whole. Actually there is one (and only one) left - the Faerie Queen (and she does have a write up that includes clerical as well as wizardly spells).



Here is the information on the Sie from Bloodspawn:

The seelie faeries were the first children of the Shadow World. Long ago, when the waking world and the Shadow World were one, a race known as the Sie (“see”) populated the land. These creatures were beings of great magic, innate wielders of both sorcery that worked with nature (priestly spells) and sorcery that broke the rules of nature (wizardly spells). They cast their spells not by the prayer of priests or the rote memorization of human wizards, but rather the gathering of magical energies (the process yet employed by today’s elves).

The force that spilt the world into two halves was so strong that it also split the land’s inhabitants, ripping the Sie in twain. Each creature became two separate entities—a faerie (seelie) in the Shadow World and an elf (Sidhe) in Cerilia. The seelie retained control of natural magic and gained power over a new force in the Shadow World: the Seeming. The Sidhe retained control of wizardly magic and became bound to the land itself.

Though the ancient link between the two peoples has long since been forgotten by all but the Faerie Queen (the only surviving Sie), to this day, when an elf is born in Cerilia, a new faerie appears in the Seelie Court. While it is possible that a traveling elf or faerie could meet its counterpart, no one knows what would happen in such an extraordinary event.

Unless slain, seelie faeries are immortal in the Shadow World but mortal in Cerilia. Conversely, elves are immortal in Cerilia but mortal in the Shadow World. The faeries are as attuned to the nature of the Shadow World as elves are to Cerilia. This link enables them to exist in such a hostile environment with virtually no natural predators. The evil of the Shadow World, however, holds plenty of unnatural ones.

Seelie faeries are generally vegetarians, subsisting primarily on fruits, nuts, roots, and seeds. They do, however, eat meat when it is offered to them. The fair folk have an aversion to milk—a means by which savvy individuals have been known to expose a faerie so masked in the Seeming that its identity was otherwise indeterminable.

[Thelandrin]

This is getting seriously out of hand. No more flaming, passive aggressive insults or talk about the Nazis. Full stop. No one is trying to censor anyone, except where the thread devolves into pointless insults, flaming or character assaults.

For the second time, can we all please discuss this topic in a rational manner? Thank you.

[ShadowMoon]

This is getting seriously out of hand. No more flaming, passive aggressive insults or talk about the Nazis. Full stop. No one is trying to censor anyone, except where the thread devolves into pointless insults, flaming or character assaults.

For the second time, can we all please discuss this topic in a rational manner? Thank you.

As long as no one accuse people of being Nazis and purists (in obvious negative context), just because some of us are satisfied with original feel and rules presented in our favorite campaign setting...

PS: Although I don't mind deleting my previous post, it was far from flaming... I stated that I wouldn't mind banning someone from community if that one arrogantly calling other members with rather offensive term (Nazis) for sole reason of not agreeing with him that our favorite setting should be more Diablo/FR/whatever uber magic one...

[Thelandrin]

Just for the record, I deleted all offensive political references and anyone else's quotes of said references. Also, with absolutely no disrespect to you, ShadowMoon, I don't think public discussion of bans is entirely appropriate, so I removed that bit too.

[DanMcSorley]

Edit: editing out my own post. I normally read this through the br email list, so I wasn't seeing the whole thread before I replied.

[AndrewTall]

It doesn't matter to me if the poster is a site mod. If I can present created material that contradicts them then I shall with great gusto.

However not only have you conspicuously failed to do so - your 'great gusto' tends to be stated in an inflammatory manner - and as a result is completely counter-productive.

So I will be posting as to how the mods treat gamers here. Enjoy!!

By ignoring their flame-baiting, then quietly, and repeatedly, helping to explain the setting to them? All we have done is point out the way the setting is written and request that when you suggest modifications you have the grace to call them such without demanding that we either accept that the setting was flawed to avoid the modifications you propose or that the game should be re-interpreted by all to include them.

If you reflect on the posted material from the Manual of the Planes #2 & #4 can do everything the seeming can. Oh wait that was deleted by a mod.

My intention was too split the posts within the threads not delete any parts of them, my apologies if I erred.

Your point is irrelevant in any case, the question is not 'do the Shadow Realm and Shadow Plane have similar characteristics' - both have a similar design aim (spooky other world giving the excuse for demonic minions and rapid travel) so congruence is to be expected - the question is rather whether altering the setting so that the shadow realm is replaced / expanded into the shadow plane would be an improvement. I have yet to hear any benefits mentioned from discarding the setting system and adopting the standard DnD planar system and given the likelihood of cultural contamination see only downsides to doing so.

I see the connections and have found a fine way to integrate the changes that the author failed to adequately represent in the opinions of a reader.

No, you appear want to have the connections, ignore or do not consider why they were severed and fail to explain the benefits of your proposed changes. I remain unconvinced.

The loss of a True Mage or the brands of lesser magic are not that big of deal for me in the presentation of the setting.

Obvious from your posts and fine in your campaign - but they are a fairly major change for those who do not want yet another common magic world and as such should be accepted as a variant, not demanded to become the norm.

A high level mage of any type is to be feared and respected.

Indeed, which is why the original setting limited their number and often put severe social constraints (Rjurik, Khinasi, Vos) on them. Of course a high level anything should be feared and respected - mages no more or less than any other class.

At least an MMORPG isn't able to cheat the rules. Put up defenses with information or simply don't respond.

We don't cheat the rules, to cheat one has play with a hidden ruleset different to that agreed - we have simply stated the rules that the setting utilises and requested that any changes are noted as such. I would hope that any rational person would respond to confusion by providing information, and note that we have responded to your posts repeatedly despite your often abrasive tone.

The differences are that I can see advancement in the power level due to the very nature and strength of Realm Magic, and also, that I can see interconnectivity in the magic system that makes up the greater TSR setting games. I also can seamlessly infer that the Shadow World is in fact a part of the Shadow Plane by linking environmental factors that exist in both planar representations that are totally congruous with the issue. I have posted the material before.

Incorrect on all counts - as has been repeatedly stated BR is magic rare not magic weak. I am not aware of anyone arguing that realm magic was not an expansion to power that put mage regents on par with landed regents and the like. The interconnectivity - as again repeatedly stated - is very deliberately altered in BR as written. Your latter point was I fear not as persuasive to others as to yourself and failed to explain why the reinterpretation was superior in any event.

My point is that the magic system can be interconnected & consistent in Birthright (and other settings), because they offered so little uniqueness to what is laughably called “True Magic”, while the Dark Sun setting set up an entire magic system that drained life force from the land & creatures to power spells.

Darksun had a 'flavour' adjustment to magic - the spells available (in number and type) were practically identical to the standard - the BR change to heavily limit spell selection to make the magician class was a substantially greater modification to the wizard than the addition of a defiling effect to make the defiler class.

So you want to talk about physics, when I am talking about the magic system????? That is really incongruous???

Not really, you were asking why magicians had access to some schools and not others complaining that the schools chosen were arbitrary. I made a comment on the relative power requirements of the schools in question (all magican spells were low power, which is in keeping with the setting given that magicians do not fully tap mebhaighl) and also commented on the impact of the school selection on the combat effectiveness. I agree that Divination and Illusion are not 'weaker' in the round if properly played, but they are far more indirect than the more combative schools and so have a different impact on game-play.

I also demonstrated fairly effectively that the attacking mage in question could be deposed of, <snip>. You just have to agree to grow your game to that level.

Again you fail to see the point - yes the attacking mage can be defeated with counter spells - recognised in all of my responses on the subject - but those counter spells will not be illusion/divination based. Accordingly if you remove the restrictions on travel magic it is necessary to increase the number of true mages to permit other regents ready access to the counter-spells. As such the restriction on travel magics which you saw as arbitrary was in fact a necessary outcome of the restriction on the number of mages.

As to 'growing the game' I disagree that it would be an improvement, as a DM I found that unrestricted magic and high level play meant vast amounts of my time was wasted designing combat tactics to properly use the options available to a high level wizard adversary, to find challenges for a magic loaded party, etc and as a result less time was available for designing actual role playing situations to the inevitable detriment of the game.

Also I hate to mention that the monsters they list in the back of the Blood Spawn are AD&D based.

Given that BR is an AD&D game and this has never been questioned I can't think why you hate to mention the basis :confused:

There is hardly a archmage in every village as you well know.

The prevalence of mages in FR is hardly something you could miss. Look at almost any city or town mentioned and you will see multiple high level mages - the term 'village archmage syndrome' is simply a comment on the absurdity of the situation give the destructive capability of standard high level ADnD magic.

What are your merits in the system………I think you are simply trying to limit the affects of magic on the setting…..the setting stays unique either way.

The merits in a magic rare system are numerous, but generally revolve around less time spent on 'roll' as opposed to 'role' playing, greater perception of players to threats and challenges to their PC's, greater focus on thinking through problems as opposing to blasting through, etc. In this aspect of the system I agree with limiting the effects of magic - I see the benefits of using the setting as written and believe that they outweigh any loss from reducing the prevalence of magic.

I should not be censored because I like the idea of magic being part of such a magically vibrant setting.

We are not saying you cannot change the magic and other aspects of the system, merely that you are changing it - that is not censorship.

You are setting up yourself to censor the material based on the edition and how you personally perceive the setting. I will continue to post until I run afoul of some rule violation that someone like you can use to get me banned

No we are not. We have not at any point stopped your ranting - merely corrected you when you mis-interpret it. That you failed to see the humour in my Gleemax comment does not surprise me - for someone so vehemently pro-AD&D anti anti-3e you seem to spend a lot of time arguing against other peoples' liking for 'old fashioned' aspects of their old games which I find amusing... As for rules violations if Arjan/Irdeggman/etc wanted to ban you they would have done so - there is no need to scrabble for rules infractions that I am aware of, they have not done so. Indeed many of us have spent a considerable amount of time explaining the setting to you.

[Beruin]

Man, twelve hours away from the boards, and all hell breaks loose...

For the second time, can we all please discuss this topic in a rational manner? Thank you.

I'll give it a try, though there are so many different topics swirling around here that I find it difficult to focus...

On Elves:

Making elves reject religion was again a deliberate change - the elves are meant to be very different in attitude to elves of other settings of the time and the refusal to accept the concept of worship was part of this - and specifically blamed for the ability of the humans to defeat the elves across Cerilia prior to Deismaar.

Unique flavor to prevent a race from being clerics is a mechanism to allow them to be damaged in killed easier….look no healers…..in the light that they are basically immortal. I can kills elves healers in the part or no. It is another useless arbitrary addition.

The elves rejecting religion is a great idea flavour-wise, cutting them off from all healing magic is indeed somewhat problematic, given their immortality. How large is the chance that an individual elf will someday suffer a crippling accident, disease or injury during his millennia of existence? IIRC, the Complete Book of Elves even offered a kind of magical cybernetics for this reason - not that this is something I'd like to see IMC, but it highlights that an immortal people would probably be very concerned with preserving their bodily integrity and health. This would make the elves either very skilled surgeons and technologically advanced medical practitioners or give them at least some access to healing magic.

I also do think that elves should excel in nature-based magic which is basically barred to them if they can't become clerics or druids. There are a number of options to work around this, like introducing arcane equivalents to these spells or perhaps in 3E feats like animal, plant or nature mage or possibly a prestige class, but the easiest solution is to allow elves to become druids. Even though I did like the notion of elves rejecting religion, I therefore decided on the following take:

The Sidhelien honor the cosmos itself as the only divine being. This being, the soul or world mother (the denomination Avanu´ilúvienti is feminine, also this deity is not normally associated with a specific sex), does not appear in the form of any living being, but rather the forests, mountains, lakes and oceans are the deity and every stone and stream and each living thing contains a spark of its divinity. This belief is a theorized and monotheistic evolution from the original animist religion of the Sidhelien.

Here's the accompanying creation myth:

At the beginning, there was only chaos. Out of the chaos, order emerged. Order and chaos wrestled with each other and mingled during this process. From this collision, the world sprang. It contained the powers of both chaos and order, still mindlessly fighting for untold millennia, until in the end sentience emerged and with it, balance, the fragile bonding of chaos and order. Avanu' ilúvienti was born. She created the eternal cycle, an order, fertilized by the creative energies of chaos or a chaos, restrained by the forces of order. The current shape of the world developed. The four elements formed and finally, life emerged. Yet still chaos and order threatened the balance and hence Avanu' ilúvienti herself. Thus, from star dust, the four elements and the waters of life,she created the guardians of balance, the first-born, the first elves

Okay, note that I originally wrote this in German and translated on the spot, so this is definitely not high quality prose, but you'll get the gist.
This is more a philosophical belief than a structured religion, but it still gives elves enough spiritual 'oomph' to become druids. AFAIR, someone (kgauck?) proposed the option that druids might use source holdings instead of temple holdings a while back, and this would fit nicely with this concept, imho.

[Thelandrin]

Well Beruin, please by all means feel free to write your own interpretation of Sidhelien spirituality and woodland connection on the wiki. I have a very simple suggestion on my userpage and on my House Rules page, but I'd be interested to see yours

[Beruin]

Continuing here....

On religion in general, I always thought that this is a weak point in all published settings, BR included, with the Scarred Lands setting as the only exception I know of. For the most part, the published settings offer a haphazard collection of deities, some good, some bad, some in-between with no internal coherence. What's worse, the existence of these gods is universally accepted by all races and cultures. This is not how it works in our world and not what I want IMC. Religion is an important distinguishing factor between cultures, and I want my cultures to be distinct.
IMC, Anuirean religion is closely modelled after medieval Christianity, monotheism included. Most of the official gods are retained as saints, which enables me to keep most of the temples as orders devoted to a particular saint. The Rjurik (which are purely Celtic IMC, without Norse influences) worship Danu, the three-fold Goddess, and Dagda, the God of Dozen Faces, each with a number of lesser aspects.
Every culture has a different creation myth (though I haven't worked them all out yet or probably ever will) and each culture essentially believes that it alone is right and all others are wrong, whether simply mistaken or downright heretical (You know, this is similar to what sometimes happens on these boards ).
These beliefs and myths can have similarities, but might also be mutually exclusive. I haven't really decided who's right or who's wrong (other than the fact that Azrai is a real threat, but his nature remains debatable). This of course means, that I don't have a structured cosmology, but as I'm not much into plane or setting hopping, I don't really need one. Should I really be pressed into revealing the true nature of the universe (and the gods) I'd probably argue along the lines of the 2E Shaman's Handbook, which essentially states that spirits (and gods as very strong spirits) do not really exist, save in the imaginations of mortals and the belief of mortals powers and forms their capabilities. A cleric gains his powers from his god because he and a lot of other believers believe that his god provides these powers.

Back to elves/Sie:

The Sie were masters of all magic (both clerical and wizardly) - when they split (and there is a one-to-one correlation between seelie-faeries and elves) the seelie-faeries inherited the mastery of clerical magic while the elves got the mastery of wizardly magic.

I never really liked this explanation very much, I always pictured seelie-faeries has having a stronger affinity to arcane than to divine magic (okay, druidical magic excluded). This distinction also does not work very well in 3E, which blurs the line between cleric and wizard spells anyway - bards getting a number of healing spells, clerics getting powerful offensive spells via their domains, prestige classes that advance both divine and arcane magic, initiate feats and so on - and also basically allows any race access to all classes.