Religious issues...

[Elton Robb]

1) You can cast a spell to prove your God is real.

Oh dear.

[kgauck]

I disagree that Haelyn and Cuiraecen have differences in philosophy. THey seem very much in harmony. Where they differ is in the acceptance of disription to achieve moral ends. Haelyn has difficulty doing anything more than withdrawing his support for the bad ruler, leaving them to their fate. Cuiraecen goes right in and topples the bad ruler, but both are in fundamental agreement about who is good and who is bad. Cuiraecen's description of chaos is a way of describing his impetusousness, unpredictability, and his willingness to cause a mess and be distruptive. But there is no ideological conflict with Haelyn, and of all the family's described, the Haelyn, Nesirie, Cuiraecen family seems more cooperative and interactive than Erik, Avani, and Lara, who seem cooperative and interactive, or Ruornil, Sera, Eleole, which seesm strained.

I take the descriptive text far more than the alignment tags they have been given. Without the alignment tags, I would not have emphasized Cuiraecen's unpredictability, his impetuousness, and so on campared to Haelyn. So I am pleased with them as far as that goes, but I go with the descriptive material first. Haelyn and Cuiraecen get along well.

[Dcolby]

Haelyn and Cuiraecen get along well.

I would tend to agree, when one looks at the physical locations of the Haelyn and Cuiraecen churchs one will usualy find the other in close quarters. Beoruine, Tuornen, Ghoere, Mhoried... etc etc all have both churches of H & C and they rarely are described in descriptiove texts of "openly" thwarting the other. There may be some positioning between the two, and each D.M. is free to run things as he see's fit but to me it is clear that in most nations the two Churches are if not complimentary they are at least willing to co-exist.

It could even be said that it is to a rulers benifit to patronize the church of both the father and the son. One supports his rule and the feudal order upon which it is based and the other gives support to his martial ambitions and channels the warlike Anuirean nature of his more aggresive and younger nobility.

I know the game material does not support it, but you can almost see how as a youth a man might favor Cuiraecen, and as he grows in maturity and responsibilities he favors Haelyn.

Perhaps even priests of the two migrate as well.

At least in my campaigns these two worships are very close. Not always agreeing, but often allied.

[DanMcSorley]

On 6/7/07, Dcolby <brnetboard@birthright.net> wrote:
> ------------ QUOTE ----------
> Haelyn and Cuiraecen get along well.
> -----------------------------
> I would tend to agree, when one looks at the physical locations of the Haelyn and
> Cuiraecen churchs one will usualy find the other in close quarters. Beoruine, Tuornen,
> Ghoere, Mhoried... etc etc all have both churches of H & C and they rarely are described
> in descriptiove texts of "openly" thwarting the other. There may be some positioning
> between the two, and each D.M. is free to run things as he see`s fit but to me it is clear
> that in most nations the two Churches are if not complimentary they are at least willing to
> co-exist.
>
> It could even be said that it is to a rulers benifit to patronize the church of both the father
> and the son. One supports his rule and the feudal order upon which it is based and the
> other gives support to his martial ambitions and channels the warlike Anuirean nature of
> his more aggresive and younger nobility.
>
> I know the game material does not support it, but you can almost see how as a youth a
> man might favor Cuiraecen, and as he grows in maturity and responsibilities he favors
> Haelyn.
>
> Perhaps even priests of the two migrate as well.
>
> At least in my campaigns these two worships are very close. Not always agreeing, but
> often allied.

You can go a bit farther with this. In my early-modern Birthright
game, not only were the churches of Cuiraecen and Haelyn allied, the
churches of Nesirie fit into this group as well. She is Haelyn`s
wife, after all, and Cuiraecen`s mother.

So you ended up with a triple alliance of faith, all three gods
worshipped in all Anuirean temples. Nesirie tend to be most prominant
along the coasts and with women, Haelyn with the ruling classes, and
Cuiraecen with the warrior class. There were obviously orders,
abbeys, nunneries, and such devoted to each of them separately, but
the most prominent church in Anuire was the Unified Imperial Temple.

The poorer, discontent classes worship at the unified church, but also
favor the third generation of gods, the sanctities. The most popular
of these is the daughter of Cuiraecen and Laerme. It`s a dangerous
time to be a ruling noble. Her name, of course, is Liberty.

It`s been a while since I ran this, I can`t remember what the other
sanctities were. I think one was the child of Cuiraecen and Eleole,
but I don`t remember what I called her (him?). The sanctities were
the saints of various virtues. Liberty, Charity, Equality,
Fraternity, that sort of thing. Saint Liberty was the one that
figured most in the game.
--
Daniel McSorley

[ryancaveney]

you can almost see how as a youth a man might favor Cuiraecen, and as he grows in maturity and responsibilities he favors Haelyn

This is an eminently sensible idea, and one I heartily encourage.


Ryan

[cccpxepoj]

You can go a bit farther with this. In my early-modern Birthright game, not only were the churches of Cuiraecen and Haelyn allied, the churches of Nesirie fit into this group as well. She is Haelyn`s wife, after all, and Cuiraecen`s mother.

So you ended up with a triple alliance of faith, all three gods worshipped in all Anuirean temples. Nesirie tend to be most prominant along the coasts and with women, Haelyn with the ruling classes, and Cuiraecen with the warrior class. There were obviously orders, abbeys, nunneries, and such devoted to each of them separately, but the most prominent church in Anuire was the Unified Imperial Temple.

The poorer, discontent classes worship at the unified church, but also favor the third generation of gods, the sanctities. The most popular of these is the daughter of Cuiraecen and Laerme. It`s a dangerous time to be a ruling noble. Her name, of course, is Liberty.

It`s been a while since I ran this, I can`t remember what the other sanctities were. I think one was the child of Cuiraecen and Eleole, but I don`t remember what I called her (him?). The sanctities were the saints of various virtues. Liberty, Charity, Equality, Fraternity, that sort of thing. Saint Liberty was the one that figured most in the game.

man you where inspired with a French Burgoase Revolution.(" Burgoase" maybe i'm not writing it right but cant find a word in dictionary)

[Jaleela]

We have this argument a lot, it seems; most recently just three weeks ago at http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3796.

My summary of that discussion is no, you can't prove anything by casting spells except that you can cast spells, because you can be an atheist and still cast spells -- in fact, the best wizards on Cerilia are all elves, none of whom believe in gods.


Ryan

I should also point out that historically, polytheistic societies have never had a problem in believing in other socities' gods. They tended to honour different gods worshiped in different locations and circumstances, but believed in the especial efficiency, or relevance of their own gods. The Romans are a great example of this, but the tendancy was all over the ancient world.

You could look at it like modern Catholics look at their patron saint - they believe in them all, but are especially attatched to their patron. A foreign deity would be seen as a deity, but the person may believe that the foreign deity might be ambivalent to them, or even hostile, or that 'when in Rome'... in regards to worship.