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  1. #1

    Religious issues...

    Thurienne Donall(sp?), ruler of Talinie, is described in Ruins of the Empire as being willing to crush non-Haelinite temples.

    I'm curious how this sort of religious bigotry would fly in the BR setting. I mean, the gods themselves seem to get along(with the exception of with the Vos clique of Belinik and Kriesha) and their roles don't overlap all that much.
    Look for me by moonlight
    Watch for me by moonlight
    I'll come to thee by moonlight
    Though Hell should bar the way

  2. #2
    Senior Member Jaleela's Avatar
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    Birthright isn't the 21st century, it is a quasi-late-medieval setting, and to boot, there are TONS of places in the 21st century where that sort of religious "bigotry" (intolerance of other religions is a better description) exists all the time - ever hear of religious laws in Islamic countries? Are you aware that Scientology is outlawed in modern Germany?

    My read of Birthright is it is the last thing from a setting with a touchy-feely modern Western Values System.

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    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    I see her stated position as her enforcing the idea of Haelyn as head of the pantheon - so she isn't outlawing other temples but she is demanding that just as their god should bow to Haelyn, their church should bow to hers, and so she should speak for their church on various external matters.

    Just as in guild holdings many different industries can be represented by a single guilder, I see temple holdings as many temples represented by a single church - the individual temples can worship various gods but only one of them is 'head of the church'.

    So Thuriene will happily permit knights of Cuiraecen - as long as they accept their role as heralds of Haelyn, etc and form part of the over-arching Northern Imperial Temple, priests of Nesire are fine as long as they tend the wounded and don't preach against Haelyn's just wars, druids of Erik as long as they tend the fields as part of the natural order decreed by Haelyn, etc...

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    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Here is my interpretation fo what's going on in the Northern Marches, by which I mean Talinie, Cariele, and Dhoesone. Similar things have been going on elsewhere, but the dynamic is different because the composition of things is different.

    A generation or so ago, the temples of Sarimie figured out how to change their appeal. The nobility of the Heartlands had become more open to using their wealth to make more wealth. Their long stewardship of the land in Haelynite tradition had created a surplus large enough that they didn't have to husband it carefully in case of a bad harvest or storms, or other problems. As such, the temples of Sarimie were able to change their message slightly to extend their appeal from guilders and craftsmen and exclusivly urban folk, to nobles, and by their influence to their peasants as well. Suddenly Sarimie was no longer an urban townsfolk thing, but could be rural and urban. Nobles and their peasants focused more on cash crops, faming for profit, instead of putting production as a much lower value compared to susatainability, stability, and equaity. The temples of Sarimie took off, and we have the Celestial Jewel of Sarimie to show for it. However, the priests of Haelyn didn't just give up, they adjusted and tweaked their message. Haelyn isn't just about stewardship, its also about a just and equaitable social order. They could point to some of the hardships of the new agriculture, such as enclosure, and the loss of the commons, withdrawl of cooperative farming, and so on. Eventually (say, 10 years ago) the temples of Haeyln staunched the tide and now there is an equilibrium in the Heartlands.

    But as things were getting tough in the Heartlands, Temias Coumain sent a promising young lieutenant, Larra Nielems, to Cariele to take advantage of an opening there as a new guilder on the scene, Mheallie Bireon, was changing things in favor of the guilds there. Rising guilds are always an opening for temples of Sarimie. The new message of Sarimie however, wasn't confined to the guilders and craftsmen and townsfolk. Larra brought the improved message of the Celestial Jewel to the Northern Marches, and among other things, found that the doctrine of Fitzalan, emphasising hard work, was a whole new way to turn Haelynite doctrine into worshipers in the temples of Sarimie. Why just work hard, when you can work hard and get rich doing so? Suddenly there was a threat to the temples throughout the Northern Marches as the Northern Reformed Church of Sarimie started expanding wildly on this new message.

    So I see the Northern Marches as being forced to respond to this new, vigourous temple of Sarimie. The Oaken Grove has responded by putting Gunther Brant at the helm of their organization. As a Brecht convert to the faith of Erik, who knows better than a Brecht how to undermine the doctrine of Sarimie and teach the values of the Old Father of the Forest. In Dhoesone, the lawpriests of Haelyn have allied with the temples of Erik to combat the Sarimie temples and win the people back to tehir traditional faiths.

    In Talinie, there is a movement, likewise to combat Sarimie by moving Haelyn towards Erik and presnting a combined doctrinal attack, but this is centered on Siobhan Riedhie, the heir presumptive, and not the Thane. The Thane is being encouraged by Torias Griene to adopt a hard line policy against followers of Sarimie, because Torias knows it will fail and make the temple of Sarimie stronger by trials. In the mean time, the NIT fails to adopt the ideology neccesary to win converts by persuasion. Perhaps the NIT becomes rigid and unswerving in combating Sarimie and binds itself into a corner with an unappealing doctrine it can't shake loose.

    Enter the bold PC's.

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    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaleela View Post
    My read of Birthright is it is the last thing from a setting with a touchy-feely modern Western Values System.
    I find Birthright full of the touchy-feely, and I take a bat to it all over the place. Its full of egalirarianism and suspicion of nobility, in a game where you play nobles. Its enviromentalism is all over the place, Talinie especially. There are some traditional value systems that get at the same end but don't sound like political fasions of the 1990's.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaleela View Post
    My read of Birthright is it is the last thing from a setting with a touchy-feely modern Western Values System.
    I think you misunderstood what I was getting at. I'm well aware of the benighted state of the Middle East, et cetera, et cetera.

    In Anuirea, unlike the real world:
    1) You can cast a spell to prove your God is real.
    2) The Gods have mostly friendly relationships; some are even married. I don't see how any, say, Cleric of Haelyn could justify cracking down on the follower's of his deity's wife or son for any reason.
    Look for me by moonlight
    Watch for me by moonlight
    I'll come to thee by moonlight
    Though Hell should bar the way

  7. #7
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    I hardly see a friendly relationship between Haelyn and Sera. Without the obvious emnity between Haelyn and Belenik, or Erik and Kriesha, I think the relationship with the most rivalry is Sera and Haelyn.

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    Senior Member ryancaveney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prince_dios View Post
    In Anuirea, unlike the real world: You can cast a spell to prove your God is real.
    We have this argument a lot, it seems; most recently just three weeks ago at http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3796.

    My summary of that discussion is no, you can't prove anything by casting spells except that you can cast spells, because you can be an atheist and still cast spells -- in fact, the best wizards on Cerilia are all elves, none of whom believe in gods.


    Ryan

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    Senior Member ryancaveney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kgauck View Post
    I think the relationship with the most rivalry is Sera and Haelyn.
    Not Erik and Sera?


    Ryan

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    Site Moderator Sorontar's Avatar
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    Erik's biggest issue is wanton destruction and lack of regrowth so Belinik and Kriesha are the bad ones. Erik does have issues with Sera about greed making people get more than the community needs from the world, but I suspect that the rivalries really come down to the individual churches. After all the Emerald Spiral and the Oaken Grove have different views on urbanisation and merchanting. Also, individual clerics have likes and dislikes about the other religions/Gods. For instance, my Druid of Erik dislikes the use of necromancy by a Priest of Sera, especially "animate dead". I don't know that this is an issue that the churches or gods would really concern themselves about since it is not one of main fields of Sera.

    Sorontar.

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