Undead Legion

[kgauck]

I`m not sure why everyone is making this so
complicated honestly.

I`m sure it is fun to talk about, but when we start
adding so many additional factors, it only leaves even
more to be explained...and more to remember when the
essence of the game to me is to simply have fun.

This is a good argument from a particular gaming style. I'd let you pick your own name for it, but the essence of the is to have fun is a good motto.

Two other gaming styles might include a "storyteller" style, which craves extra detail for descriptions and plot circumstances, and the "simulation" style which asks the DM to create a fully functional, sensible world for the players to explore. This too asks for details because part of player exploration is figuring out how things work.

The second two styles tend to take themselves a little more seriously, and don't put the emphasis on fun so much as they put it on other desirable attributes. If you want a fun romp during which you slay some zombies, confront the necromancer and save the people, you don't require all of this detail. Play the style that you and your players like the best.

[ShadowMoon]

I'd note that if you are using a shamanic system for the magic then the elves are arguably conjuration, but in any event some elves (Tuar Annwyn and Rhoubhe leap to mind) wouldn't hesitate if they thought they could kill enough humans with the undead to justify the harm to the land.

In terms of the natural cycle they are merely delaying it slightly - after exterminating the humans they will let the undead collapse leaving the land cleansed of the human taint such as cities, bridges and walls - in the long term its a huge benefit to nature - and as the only souls tampered with a human (whose souls are chained to the gods anyway so never in reality free from an elven perspective) the moral downside is minor. The reason I suggested elves though was simply the time perspective - if you can create numbers of undead over a prolonged period the necromantic issues should subside (although you need somewhere to store them where they can't wander off) - the Lost would have been a better example.

This is Human way of thinking, Sidhe are far more passive and true to their ways. Their inability to change and adapt will probably be the main reason for their extinction. Soon, very soon, mwahahaha...

^^;

[ryancaveney]

The question is how the magic lets you control them - as the method has an impact on how many undead can be summoned and controlled, the quality of orders that you can give to them (can they handle IF/THAN/ELSE statements?)

And if so, how many of them can be nested, and how complicated can the conditionals and predicates be? The issue is that the rules say they can only be given "simple" orders, but it provides no way to determine whether any given order is simple enough. I am happy to compute cyclomatic complexity or number of boolean logic operators, if that helps me decide whether a candidate order is "simple" or not.

Yes you can simply say 'it happens - duh', but you are are then left with a DM rule required for every single interaction with the undead - whereas if you lay out a coherent framework for summoning in the first place, the interactions and so on all follow logically.

Yes, exactly! This is what I spend most of my time doing in any game system -- searching through the logical implications of the rules, looking for anything that would be dangerous to the features of the world I like.

The alternative is to watch a group of elf players say 'I spend 10 years raising a 50k undead legion from the bodies in the Icemarch and head south to eradicate the human infestation' - from their viewpoint its far more practical than risking their own lives and 10 years is nothing really to an immortal...

Again, you read my mind. When it comes to world-building, all the balance headaches come from the NPCs, not the PCs.

Something limits the ability to create undead legions, summon monsters etc - or every regent would have a (not so) small army of them with peasants taught by the priests that if one is not absolutely faithful in life (rattle rattle) then one will serve also in death, until the peasants debt to society for the life they were given is paid. - why pay peasants to work the fields, fight, etc when undead can do it for free and possibly better?

I've suggested on this list before that there really ought to be a sect of Haelynism which teaches that continuing to serve the state after death is the moral duty of every good person...


Ryan

[ryancaveney]

I`m sure it is fun to talk about, but when we start adding so many additional factors, it only leaves even more to be explained... and more to remember when the essence of the game to me is to simply have fun.

Yes, exactly -- the purpose of the game is to have fun. For me, having these discussions and making rules changes based on them *is* fun! It is actually much *more* fun for me than is playing in adventure scenarios! That's precisely why I've keep coming back to this list for a decade or more. It gives me an excellent arena in which to share the part of the game I like best.


Ryan

[ShadowMoon]

Yes, exactly -- the purpose of the game is to have fun. For me, having these discussions and making rules changes based on them *is* fun! It is actually much *more* fun for me than is playing in adventure scenarios! That's precisely why I've keep coming back to this list for a decade or more. It gives me an excellent arena in which to share the part of the game I like best.


Ryan

Couldn't agree more ^^;

Thumbs up...

[ryancaveney]

Well all DMs are encouraged to devise and detail their campaigns, so whatever works for You and Your players, it is good for Your campaign.

My feeling has always been that most of the people on this list are DMs, who spend our time discussing what has or hasn't worked in our campaigns, and searching for things which are worth trying in our campaigns to see whether they would work. Appealing to DM authority is not helpful when one is the DM and is trying to figure out what decision to make.


Ryan

[irdeggman]

I'd note that if you are using a shamanic system for the magic then the elves are arguably conjuration, but in any event some elves (Tuar Annwyn and Rhoubhe leap to mind) wouldn't hesitate if they thought they could kill enough humans with the undead to justify the harm to the land.

Except that elves have a deep seeded fear of the Shadow World itself.

Bloodspawn (pg 19)

Elves harbor an innate, ancestral fear of the Shadow World,. . . .

So I would say that there is another reason why elves shun necromancy - and especially anything having to do with raising the dead (as in undead armies).

[kgauck]

I'd imagine that humans have a fear of the Shadow World too. A Sidhe rejection of the Shadow World and its dangers just raises the bar on necromancy, it doesn't remove it comepletly. Plus, I think messing about in the forbidden isn't something limited to humans.

[AndrewTall]

When I was building a planned adventure arc in Rjurik (which died a sad and lonely death but that's another story) I started with elves and undead but found that the idea lacked a certain grace for the reasons others have pointed out earlier (I should have said Lost not elves in the first place above, I've side-tracked half the thread, I grovel).


I decided I could get exactly the effect I was looking for in undead (fodder legions) with a temporary golem-like creation I called Cwshegh. Statistics, etc, etc were identical to those of skeletons and zombies, but they were made of entwined branches, leaves, grasses, etc and animated by various minor nature/elemental spirits. They were slightly more flammable than the usual undead admittedly but otherwise it was just a matter of saying that they were animated by positive/elemental energy, all clerical turning simply repelled/destroyed them and voila - elf friendly 'undead'.


Letting clerics turn the Cwshegh meant they could be dropped in as 'ancient knowledge' without impacting the history of Cerilia - the clerics were a turning force - with clerics on their side the human warriors could readily bypass the cwshegh to attack the elves instead of being held back while the elves poured on the arrows.

I then just had to say that most elven mages with the skill to make Cwshegh had died at Deismaar/during the chaos around it to have a 'resurgent menace' adventure as an ancient elf warlock escaped from an ancient tomb to wreck havok on the Rjurik as he tried to restore the elves to glory...

I then had to figure out why the elves didn't simply build 40-50 units of the things, which is why I decided on a RP cost, and made them depreciate as time went by - I hadn't decided on a rate but figured around 20% per turn giving them a little over a years life.

For intelligence I figured about the same as a dog, but with very low initiative and self will. I figured a few of them would go rogue as the spirit gained proper free-will, go berserk if it went mad, etc - that sort would show up as adventure hooks amongst the chaos.


The adventure idea btw was to see the impact on PC Rjurik realms of upheavals in the non-human realms as the barony tried to take safer land to the west, the White Witch (I have her known for being ambitious etc, but not as an awnie) called for aid, Ghuralli was driven into the lowlands of the Downs and sent refugees fleeing into Stjordvik and all the while agents of Lluarbraight were rife in the lands with mysterious purpose though the elven realm itself vanished behind an impenetrable warding.

I figured some exploratory adventures, some diplomatic adventures as the PC's identified the scale of the problem and realised they couldn't just sit back and cheer as the 'bad guys' fought each other and then had to convince other Rjurik of the fact, some research activity as the PC's found the links to the elves - who could be convinced to say where the warlock had been imprisoned and give some clues as to how to defeat him, a few set-piece battles to show off the legions and finally a plunge into the heart of the newly formed realm to take out the warlock himself...

Cunning PC's might even find out that the elves helping the Rjurik to flee the Cwshegh, providing advice on the dangers of the warlock and finally guiding the PC's to the ruins were in fact behind the whole event - and were taking advantage of the situation to regain some of their lands and test out the cwshegh without being blamed for the wars if it all went wrong...

[irdeggman]

I'd imagine that humans have a fear of the Shadow World too. A Sidhe rejection of the Shadow World and its dangers just raises the bar on necromancy, it doesn't remove it comepletly. Plus, I think messing about in the forbidden isn't something limited to humans.

True enough, pretty much no one has a great love for the Shadow World and anyone with intelligence would fear it. But having fear (normal reaction) and "an innate ancestral" fear are different things - one is much deeper than the other.

And I agree that in every group their are those who work against the "norm" and push the limits, etc.

But leaders would avoid doing something that is against their culture more so than non-leaders would, that is why they are "leaders".

Rhoubhe pictures himself the "perfect" elf so I would envision him keeping closer to the "ideals" than most - just in a more violent and bloody manner. Hating humans is not anti-elf in nature, in fact historically the elves are more war-like than any other race (having had "wars" with just about everyone of them). So I just can't fathom him raising armies of undead (nor any elf for that matter - just far too much undead/necromancy/Shadow World connection for a group with an ancestral fear of the Shadow World. Maybe a single undead or much more limited "experimentation" but nothing on a domain/army scale.