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Subject: RE: Racial writeups [2#1619]
From: LordRahvin <brnetboard@birthright.net>
Message-Id: <20030501200608.BC7F63F32@doriath.saers.com>
Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 22:06:08 +0200 (CEST)

This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1619

LordRahvin wrote:

Okay, maybe it was unfair of me to post this, after all. With some of my
previous posts, I tried to make the arguments fairly modular so that you
could use them or evaluate them without needing to know about all the other
rules that went along with it. I made no such effort this time. I
apologize. To be honest, I didn`t really expect anyone to reply to this
seriously -- I just posted it on the off-chance that there might be one guy
out there who might happen to find it useful.

But since it has gotten some serious attention, to which I am very grateful,
I`ll do my best to clear up some misunderstandings.

The first note was that this was not meant for the BR3e conversion, since I
don`t have any qualms about doing things differently from the PHB and having
different rules to give BR a different style. It`s not a conversion
document so much as a start-from-scratch birthright product drawing on rules
and inspiration from many d20 sources (including the BR3e document).

The following was basically the first part of some of the stuff that`s going
to be in my Race chapter. To choose your race, you must first choose a
cultural tempalte, and then based on that, you may choose special racial
abilities and disadvantages (such as low-light vision, etc.). The racial
templates primarily give you skill bonuses that scale with level (because I
think your choice of race should be more significant to character design
than in D&D, but should not just provide huge first level bonuses) and bonus
feats. Although I included ability score modifiers in the draft I posted, I
have no intention of using them because I don`t think they should be used in
a scaled point-buy system (ala, the DMG).

Although some of you have noted that some of these racial templates may
provide ECL modifiers, I don`t see any point in recording them if they *all*
have ECL modifiers. If all the choices of available races have the same ECL
modifier than there is no difference in having ECL 0 or ECL 3. (The sole
exception to this is the actual adventure-design and challenge-design
process. I`m already dealing with it, but there`s no point in posting any
of that yet. Character advancement itself is not hindered if all available
races have the same "ECL" modifier.)


> Are these in addition to the racial abilities, etc. described in the PHB? I’m assuming that they are since certain key elements aren’t addressed her, like darkvision for dwarves or lowlight vision for elves.

No, they`re not. I haven`t yet addressed things like lowlight vision and
darkvision, as that`s when the ECLs rack up and things get a little out of
hand. I`ll probably address this as a system that scales, too. (So that
dwarves will get tougher as they level up, etc.) All that will be posted
later.


> Using the “guidelines” presented in Savage Species (3.5 forward compatible) several of these races would receive an ECL modifier. I’ve listed my comments under each race with the page # and brief descriptor from SS as to why the ECL applies.

Thanks. I appreciate that. In the interest of space and redundency though,
I`m not going to be address them all individually.


> Anuirean:
> +1 ECL (unbalanced ability score, pg 11)

I don`t think the ability scores are unbalanced for the Anuirean. To be
honest though, I don`t really care. In the final draft, all ability score
adjustments will be taken out. (Though I think I may include an option to
raise your ability scores by taking a racial ability to do so.)


> +1 ECL (3 or more racial bonuses to skill checks checks, pg 12 – I’d apply this since the bonuses scale per level, so at 4th level the bonuses are +4 (+2 to Diplomacy and Ride)

Well... yes, but do you honestly believe that even at fourth level where you
have a whopping +4 spread out among your skills that it equals a whole
character level?! At 12th level, it`s a whole +8 and I`m still don`t think
it equals an ECL. Maybe when combined with the bonus feat... but still, no
hit die, no save increase, no BAB, no skill points...


>and also it’s tied into action die (By the way, what is this?) and regency rolls (I assume this is meant for domain actions? Otherwise I’m again confused as to what a regency roll is.)

Sorry. Extra rules. Previous posts.
There is no such thing as an action die in this system. What other systems
call an "action die" is called a "regency die" in this system, because only
blooded scions could have it (though they don`t have to be regents). The
amount of Regency Points that a scion has is a function of level and
adventure award (through domain power, bloodtheft, etc.). Spending a
Regency Point can be used to access certain high-powered class abilities and
blood abilities in place of the x/day mechanic. Enough collected Regency
Points can be used to increase your bloodline. A "regency die" refers to an
attempt to spend a Regency Point to improve the results of an attack roll,
skill check, or save attempt by adding "+1d6" to the d20 result. Anuireans,
as a cultural special ability, get a slight edge in doing this.

In hindsight, I don`t like this because it only applies to scions.


> +1 ECL (2 or more bonus feats, humans gain one and Anuireans gain a basic combat feat (what is a basic combat feat?) in addition)

One feat, and it has to be a Basic Combat feat. My current list of feats is
currently based on the Spycraft d20 product by AEG.
Basic Combat Feats include: Ambidexterity, Armor Group Proficiency, Luck of
Heroes, Agile Reposte, Confident Charge, Endurance, Combat Expertise, Great
Fortitude, Improved Disarm, Improved Initiative, Improved Two Weapon
Fighting, Increased Speed, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Quick
Draw, Quick Healer, Run, Sidestep, Surge of Speed, Toughness, Two-Weapon
Fighting, Weapon Focus, Weapon Group Proficiency, Zen Focus, Zen Shot, and
Zen Mastery (good feats, stupid names).


> Comes to a total ECL modifier of +3. This is rather high.

Put the book down for a second. Go back and look at the Anuirean. Do you
honestly believe that someone would rather get this racial package than 3
levels in any combination of classes they want (not even including prestige
classes and that nonsense)? I don`t think so. Common sense could apply
here. Maybe a +1 ECL but certainly not even a +2.

That being said, however, I should note that one reason I`m trying to offer
scaling racial abilities is that the character classes themselves will be
weaker, per level, than their D&D counterparts, trading versatility for
power. These racial benefits that scale with level help to balance that.
At least that`s the idea.


> Why do Anuireans lose Con? They are a warrior race. It would be better to drop the Str and Con modifiers to ensure they are not being traded off for each other.

I don`t think any of us are ever going to agree on particular modifers, but
yeah, that seems fine to me. You yourself, however, mentioned that the
Brecht should recieve a higher Con benefit because they live in harsher
climate than Anuire and so since Anuirean live in such lush climate and
harsh climate = con, maybe the anuirean con penalty might make sense? But
either way, I don`t really like the modifiers much anyway. I included them
mostly because I thought the first responses I got to these templates would
be that races should have ability score modifiers...

> +1 ECL (3 or more racial bonuses to skill checks checks, pg 12 – I’d apply this since the bonuses scale per level, so at 4th level the bonuses are +4 (+2 to Bluff and Sleight of Hand)

I still don`t think that +4 bonus equals a +1 ECL. At the extreme, at 20th
level where the bonus is +12 maybe, but by then, I think it`s a pretty moot
point.

> +1 ECL (2 or more bonus feats, humans gain one and Brechts gain a basic skill feat (again what is this?)

One feat, and it has to be a Basic Skill feat. These are your typical +2/+2
feats, but they`re a little better because you can take Advanced Skill feats
that raise the bonuses and allow you to do more stuff. Also, the basic
skill feats improves your chances to get Critical Successes with the skills
they enhance. Basic Skill feats include: Alertness, Athletic, Field
Operative, Magician (sleight of hand stuff), Merchant, Mathematician, Mimic,
Ordinary Past, Outdoorsman, Persuasive, Militia Training, Scholarly, Speedy,
Stealthy, and Traveler.

> +1 ECL (initiative increase, I’d use the special attacks and qualities descriptor on pg 12 since this ability can’t be gained by taking a level in any class and it scales by level)

There is no way in hell an increase to initiative equals a +1 ECL. It`s a
pretty minor ability, even in D&D. That being said, however, I should note
that my class writeups have initiative bonuses, reputation bonuses, defense
bonuses, and wealth bonuses all based on level so a slight increase to
initiative isn`t something as exclusive as it is in D&D.


> Why do Brechts lose Con? They are seafarers and this is a very important attribute for that focus, also there is the climate of the Great Bay to take into mind – it is harsher than say Anuire.

This was the part I was mentioning above, under the Anuirean Con penalty
stuff.

> +1 ECL (3 or more racial bonuses to skill checks checks, pg 12 – Spot, Concentration and Appraise (PHB) checks)

Appraise, Concentration and Spot aren`t very useful. Certainly not enough
to warrant a +1 ECL.

> +1 ECL (bonus to Fortitude saves, I’d use the special attacks and qualities descriptor on pg 12 since this ability can’t be gained by taking a level in any class, it scales per level and it stacks with the dwarven save bonuses in the PHB)

It doesn`t stack. The dwarven PHB entry isn`t used.


> Comes to a total ECL modifier of +2. This is less than the human modifiers.

I`m curious as to whether you still feel this is true, even with the notes
I`ve added here.


> Why do dwarves only receive a +2 to Con and a –2 to Dex? Aren’t they more hardy than Rjurik and less dexterous than Anuireans?

Yeah, I`d buy that. The bonuses for demihumans should have probably been
doubled, and then balanced out appropriately, of course.

> Why a plus to Charisma? Dwarves are never portrayed as being any better at dealing with the other races than are the other races.

Yeah they are. Or at least dwarves are considered to be on friendly terms
with everyone, or at least rather neutral. In a world of constant warfare
and fierce racial hatreds, this is no minor feat. I felt that this would
warrant a charisma bonus. Also, the clan nature of dwarves suggests strong
loyalties and ruling a dwarf realm seems be an excersise in patience and
diplomacy and negotiation -- even more so than usual. Charisma seemed like
a good bonus.

> Why the minus to Intelligence? Dwarves are definitely not portrayed as being any less capable of learning than are the other races, and definitely are more knowledgeable than are the Vos 0 dwarves have a written language.

This was mostly a magical issue. Locked up in their mountain homes and
closed off from the world is just didn`t seem, as a race, that they`d be as
knowedgeable -- and then there`s the whole magic thing. It seemed more
appropriate than any other penalty I could have assigned. But yeah, I don`t
like the ability score modifiers either.


> +1 ECL (bonus to Will saves, I’d use the special attacks and qualities descriptor on pg 12 since this ability can’t be gained by taking a level in any class, it scales per level)

+1 to +6 bonus to Will hardly seems as effective as a special attack (like
breath weapon) or a special quality (like magic resistance or telepathy).

> Why do elves lose Charisma – this is quite the opposite to the literature and its descriptions of how they are capable of captivated most mortals.

Elves don`t seem very tolerant, as a whole. They`re described as chaotic
and kind of violent, and are constantly fighting with everyone who shares
their land except the halflings and dwarves. They just don`t seem like
they`d get a charisma bonus, and maybe would even get a penalty, but I still
intend to give them a special ability regarding captivation and such.

> What type of goblin? Cerilian goblins are comprised of goblins, hobgoblins and bugbears. Elite goblins are hobgoblins, which would generally be the dominant group.
>
> Per Savage Species the following are the ability adjustments for goblinoids: (Table A-55, pg 206 and 209)
> Goblin - +0ECL, -4 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Cha
> Hobgoblin - +1 ECL, +2 Dex, +2 Con
> Bugbear - +1 ECL, +4 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Cha

I`ll spend a little more thought on this when I have more books. It was
made just with my general opinion of what goblins would be like, rather than
on any official WotC monster entry.


> 1 ECL (skill checks, I’d use the special descriptor on pg 12 since these can’t be gained by taking a level in any class bonus to Tracking checks (this doesn’t really exist, track is a feat that gives bonuses to Wilderness Lore checks, and Disable Device checks these also scale per level.

In my rules writeup, Tracking is a skill, now. It can be done in any
terrain and is intelligence-based. Appraise is put into
Knowledge(business).

> +1 ECL (2 or more bonus feats, humans gain one and Khinasi gain a Special Equipment feat (again what is this?)

Special Equipment feats interact with the Wealth Point system. Basically,
there`s only a few Special Equipment feats -- they`ll provide you with
additional starting equipment to better afford that shiny plate mail or with
additional Special Item points that will allow you to get access to low-cost
(by D&D standards) magical items (that aren`t so low-cost in my campaigns
and can`t be purchased with conventional funds). This basically works
similiar to Spycraft`s Budget Point and Gadget Point system.



> +1 ECL (2 or more bonus feats, humans gain one and Rjurik gain any Stealth feat (again what is this?)
Stealth feats include: Break Fall, Hidden Run, Vertical Climb, Instant
Stand, Moving Target, Nimble Fingers (faster skill checks), Spider Walk, and
Traceless.


> +1 ECL (Massive Damage Threshold increase, I’d use the special attacks and qualities descriptor on pg 12 since this ability can’t be gained by taking a level in any class and it scales by level)

I honestly don`t know about the Massive Damage Threshold increase. I`m not
sure if it makes a good cultural special ability or if its balanced with the
others. To give you an idea of scale though, there`s a feat that gives you
a +4 to Massive Damage Threshold.


> +1 ECL (2 or more bonus feats, humans gain one and Vos gain a basic Pursuit feat (again what is this?)

The Pursuit feat will interact with my Pursuit rules which I`ll probably be
posting sometime next month. It`s based loosely on Spycraft`s vehicle rules
but are made for foot chases, horeback chases, fantasy aerial chases,
racing, evasion, and hunting. It`ll include more rules for terrain, special
tactics (feats), and expanded obstacle rules. This will basically be an
alternative form of abstract combat used when mapping is too inconvinient
and the characters are moving (say, from room to room) too quickly
(dispatching guards or chasing someone, etc.). Its abstract nature may lend
itself to mass combat rules too, but I don`t know yet.

Anyway, pursuit feats will be special maneuvers that can be accomplished in
this alternate specialized combat system and will primarily involve
maneuvers that are dangerous, risky, or threatening that could not otherwise
be done without feats.



> +1 ECL (4 extra hp, I’d use the special attacks and qualities descriptor on pg 12 since this ability can’t be gained by taking a level in any class and it scales by level) {This is a major bonus, far outpaces any of the other ones.}

You think so? The Vos seemed pretty weak without it, not gaining much in
the way of useful skills or impressive combat feats. One extra hp didn`t
seem that big a deal to me compared to an increase in Massive Damage, a
bonus to ambush attacks, or even a bonus to saving throws.


> Comes to a total ECL modifier of +3.

Again, I don`t think so. You applied a +1 effective character level for
having a bonus hitpoint per level. Yet, taking an actual character level
will give a minimum of one bonus hitpoint per level, as much as 10, and a
whole host of other abilities and bonuses. I don`t think your evaluation of
ECL modifiers is very accurate, even if you are basing them on published
WotC products.


> Why do Vos gain a bonus to Balance and yet lose Dexterity?

Hmmm. That is a bit of an irony there, isn`t it? I`ll look at that more
closely. It should be noted that Balance and Ride are the principle skills
involved in pursuits, which is sort of a forte of the Vos in this writeup.
I may later decide to have a Running skill instead.


> Why no half-elf?

I think half-elves are stupid.
That being said, I think you could make an adequitely half-breed by taking
the cultural template of one race and the biological abilities of another,
which is one reason I wanted to seperate those into different templates.


> If you ability modifiers are being included for humans then the modifiers for demi-humans need to be doubled in order to maintain the same proportions. For example, Cerilians dwarves are more sturdy than Rjurik, if each has a +2 Con modifier theen they (as a race) are the same. There are no racial min/max scores anymore.

Okay. I agree.

> As has been pointed out ability modifiers are biological, skills (and feats) are cultural.

Don`t agree. You can see my response in a previous post.

>For example a Vos who was raised in Anuire would have the biological ability adjustments of a Vos, but not the racial illiteracy of the Vos and would have the cultural skill/feat modifiers of the Anuirean culture.

I think an Anuirean raised in Vosgaard would have the same +2 Str modifier
as other Vos when he begins his adventuring career. And he would have
illiteracy if he was raised in an illiterate upbringing! Literacy isn`t
racial... or is it? I suppose it could be, but I don`t see any reason to
interpret it that way.

In my system, there aren`t really biological differences between Anuireans
and Vos -- they`re all cultural. But an elf (or half-elf, if you prefer)
raise among Anuirean humans would have the cultural template of Anuire
(above), but pick from the biological advantages of elves instead of humans.
(I haven`t finished this part yet, so I don`t have specific examples.)

-Lord Rahvin