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  1. #1
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    [And just as a side note: There are counter-examples to *EVERYTHING* in BR,
    not just the influence of bloodlines. A certain Vos paladin comes to
    mind...]

    Which leads me to ask this question... How are paladins of Cuiraecen dealt
    with in the conversion to 3E? Since those paladins are CG... And that
    doesn`t seem to be in line too much with 3E rules (though another setting
    has paladins of a CG deity).

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  2. #2
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    [And just as a side note: There are counter-examples to *EVERYTHING* in BR,
    not just the influence of bloodlines. A certain Vos paladin comes to
    mind...]

    Which leads me to ask this question... How are paladins of Cuiraecen dealt
    with in the conversion to 3E? Since those paladins are CG... And that
    doesn`t seem to be in line too much with 3E rules (though another setting
    has paladins of a CG deity).

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  3. #3
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    On Fri, 2002-09-20 at 13:32, William Bolitho wrote:

    [And just as a side note: There are counter-examples to *EVERYTHING* in BR,
    not just the influence of bloodlines. A certain Vos paladin comes to
    mind...]

    Which leads me to ask this question... How are paladins of Cuiraecen dealt
    with in the conversion to 3E? Since those paladins are CG... And that
    doesn`t seem to be in line too much with 3E rules (though another setting
    has paladins of a CG deity).


    Hopefully VERY harshly. It`s perhaps the single most unbalanced
    character class since the cavalier-paladin -- no I take that back,
    including the cavalier-paladin.

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  4. #4
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    On Fri, 20 Sep 2002, Peter Lubke wrote:
    > Which leads me to ask this question... How are paladins of Cuiraecen dealt
    > with in the conversion to 3E? Since those paladins are CG... And that
    > doesn`t seem to be in line too much with 3E rules (though another setting
    > has paladins of a CG deity).
    >
    > Hopefully VERY harshly. It`s perhaps the single most unbalanced
    > character class since the cavalier-paladin -- no I take that back,
    > including the cavalier-paladin.

    Which one, the CG 2nd edition Cuiraecen paladin? I`m not sure I
    grok your objections.
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  5. #5
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    On Fri, 2002-09-20 at 15:18, daniel mcsorley wrote:

    On Fri, 20 Sep 2002, Peter Lubke wrote:
    > Which leads me to ask this question... How are paladins of Cuiraecen dealt
    > with in the conversion to 3E? Since those paladins are CG... And that
    > doesn`t seem to be in line too much with 3E rules (though another setting
    > has paladins of a CG deity).
    >
    > Hopefully VERY harshly. It`s perhaps the single most unbalanced
    > character class since the cavalier-paladin -- no I take that back,
    > including the cavalier-paladin.

    Which one, the CG 2nd edition Cuiraecen paladin? I`m not sure I
    grok your objections.

    The paladins of Cuiraecen as detailed in BoP (2nd Ed, original BR)
    should in the conversion to 3e be severely stripped of powers and
    abilities. (Of course the 2e paladin class itself is unbalanced - but
    the Cuiraecen version is many times more so)

    As for paladins being CG, it`s almost an oxy-moron. Like army
    intelligence. Organized chaos. Almost but not quite, I can see some
    possibilities - but religious orders of CG paladins - no. Wandering
    champions - yes. etc etc (because it`s a fantasy world does that mean
    `anything` is possible?)

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  6. #6
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    Peter Lubke <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU> wrote at 02-09-20 07.44:

    > As for paladins being CG, it`s almost an oxy-moron. Like army
    > intelligence. Organized chaos. Almost but not quite, I can see some
    > possibilities - but religious orders of CG paladins - no. Wandering
    > champions - yes. etc etc (because it`s a fantasy world does that mean
    > `anything` is possible?)

    There is very litte organisation implied in the paladin`s abilities. In
    fact, some of their abilities (the non-maintenance mount, limited healing)
    implies that they are loners, or at least very capable of acting as
    independent agent.

    The thing that I find to be a remnant of earlier editions when it comes to
    the paladin is the LG alignment restriction. Rangers used to have to be good
    - why could not paladins have gotten a similiar lightening of restrictions
    and be restricted to any good alignment?

    That said, one of the few good prestige classes from Defenders of the Faith
    was the Holy Liberator. The sad thing with that one, however, is that all
    abilities get delayed by five levels compared to the paladin`s (since it is
    a prestige class). The companion is the worst case here - by the time the
    Holy Liberator gets his companion, it is to weak (comparatively) to be of
    much use.

    And yes, the blackguard has the same problem.

    /Carl

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  7. #7
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    On Fri, 2002-09-20 at 18:30, Carl Cram=?ISO-8859-1?B?6Q==?=r wrote:

    Peter Lubke <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU> wrote at 02-09-20 07.44:

    > As for paladins being CG, it`s almost an oxy-moron. Like army
    > intelligence. Organized chaos. Almost but not quite, I can see some
    > possibilities - but religious orders of CG paladins - no. Wandering
    > champions - yes. etc etc (because it`s a fantasy world does that mean
    > `anything` is possible?)

    There is very litte organisation implied in the paladin`s abilities. In
    fact, some of their abilities (the non-maintenance mount, limited healing)
    implies that they are loners, or at least very capable of acting as
    independent agent.

    Oh sorry, I should have been more specific. Holy orders of
    paladins. But didn`t I say almost ? Yes I agree, especially for
    Cuiraecen.


    The thing that I find to be a remnant of earlier editions when it comes to
    the paladin is the LG alignment restriction. Rangers used to have to be good
    - why could not paladins have gotten a similiar lightening of restrictions
    and be restricted to any good alignment?

    Alignment restrictions are not restrictive at all and should not be seen
    as any kind of impediment or penalty. What`s going to happen )for
    example) if an assassin helps an old lady across the street - lose his
    assassin guild gold membership? Rangers used to be part druid (and thus
    got some powers from `other` powers - although why they had to be `good`
    to get stuff from a supposedly `neutral` power is a mystery. The ranger
    has been the most officially tinkered with class ever - more even than
    the bard). The `lawful` restriction of the paladin comes from their
    interpretation as chivalric warriors - a code of honor beyond their
    personal ability to redefine. Given such powers as they were/are, such a
    restriction (to a specific path/ethos/morality) is understandable. If
    there were many such choices - then I`d favor scrapping the paladin
    altogether - as all we have is warriors with different powers depending
    on their `path` in life (a kind of `way of the warrior` thing).
    Personally, and this flies in the face of modern computer-based
    role-playing (which is 3e in essence too), I don`t like
    class-development. A character should be defined by his actions,
    (character development through adventure), as opposed to his class
    (class development through level increases and detail).


    That said, one of the few good prestige classes from Defenders of the Faith
    was the Holy Liberator. The sad thing with that one, however, is that all
    abilities get delayed by five levels compared to the paladin`s (since it is
    a prestige class). The companion is the worst case here - by the time the
    Holy Liberator gets his companion, it is to weak (comparatively) to be of
    much use.

    My games have an almost 1st edition flavor to them (or even pre-1st),
    with any improvements from subsequent editions thrown in (e.g. priest
    spheres). On a review of class equality, my paladins have combat skills
    equal to priests (although a wider range of weapons and more hit points)
    and they gains spells starting at 4th level. There are no ability score
    requirements for paladins (or any other class). Choosing a class is part
    of choosing a role to play.

    And yes, the blackguard has the same problem.

    /Carl

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  8. #8
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    Which leads me to ask this question... How are paladins of Cuiraecen
    dealt with in the conversion to 3E? Since those paladins are CG... And that
    doesn`t seem to be in line too much with 3E rules (though another setting
    has paladins of a CG deity).
    -----------

    Hopefully VERY harshly. It`s perhaps the single most unbalanced
    character class since the cavalier-paladin -- no I take that back,
    including the cavalier-paladin.
    ----------

    Um... Lost reference... What exactly is a cavalier-paladin? Is that the 2E
    kit that I glossed over once or twice because it seemed a bit... unlikely
    for any of my characters? Or is that a 1E reference?

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  9. #9
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    At 11:39 AM 9/20/2002 -0700, William Bolitho wrote:

    >What exactly is a cavalier-paladin? Is that the 2E kit that I glossed over
    >once or twice because it seemed a bit... unlikely for any of my
    >characters? Or is that a 1E reference?

    I believe Peter`s referencing the combo class from 1e in Unearthed
    Arcana. There was later a kit as well, but UA made the paladin a sub-class
    of the cavalier (also presented in UA) and ratcheted up his power by giving
    him all the abilities of the cavalier class (including things like weapons
    of choice that gave additional "to hit" bonuses, the ability to parry
    successful attacks, additional saving throw bonuses, and one or two other
    things) in addition to those standard for 1e paladins. I used it once or
    twice, and using what passed for "balance" in 1e character classes it was
    OK. It just forced paladins into an even more narrow interpretation than
    they had before.

    Gary

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  10. #10
    >>>>>How are paladins of Cuiraecen

    Green Ronin has a new supplement that may be worth taking a look at. Book of the Rightious has a new CLASS called the Holy warrior. There are several permutations depending on your characters domain selection at first level (much like clerics select domains). A Holy Warrior with the Domains: Good & Law becomes a paladin, while others get other special effects. I have yet to get to the FLGS to buy this book but the PDFs are inspiring. Green Ronin (as John will attest) generally puts together well written, balanced and thought out supplements.

    Something to look at.

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