The Politics Skill.

[geeman]

I`ve been revamping 3e skills for use IMC, but also specifically in BR. So
far those BR related skills include things like Command, Intrigue,
Leadership and Research, most of which have been discussed on this
list. I`ve been mulling over including another skill, Politics, that will
aid regents in performing various domain actions. Right now I`m thinking
this skill should benefit one, maybe two domain actions and I`m leaning
towards Agitate and/or Contest in the same way I`ve got Intrigue
influencing Espionage actions, Research affecting Research actions, etc.

One major concern I have when coming up with a new skill, however, is that
it be useful not only at the realm level, but also at the adventure level,
and there`s where I`m a bit stuck. So the questions I have for you folks
is; what is it that politically skilled people apply their talents
too? What do they succeed at that their opponents do not? If you were up
against a politically savvy NPC what is it you would expect him to do?

I know this is a bit vague, but I`m just looking for some brainstorming
here. Ideas?

Gary

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[kgauck]

I`ve used the Politics skill, but frankly there is nothing there that you
won`t get by having Gather Information, Knowledge (Nobility), and Diplomacy.
The advantage I saw in the Politics skill, was that in exchange for limiting
its effects to a single realm, Politics (Roesone), and a single sphere,
politics, characters would have access to three skills.

I did the same thing with Stewardship and the skills Administration, Law,
and Knowledge (Nobility).

Of course PC`s generally don`t want to limit themselves in this way,
prefering versatility. So I generally used these skills for NPC`s who had
chosen to invest in local affairs and didn`t adventure. Of course rulers
are often surrounded by experts in local politics and stewardship.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[geeman]

At 01:17 PM 6/30/2002 -0500, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

>I`ve used the Politics skill, but frankly there is nothing there that you
>won`t get by having Gather Information, Knowledge (Nobility), and Diplomacy.
>The advantage I saw in the Politics skill, was that in exchange for limiting
>its effects to a single realm, Politics (Roesone), and a single sphere,
>politics, characters would have access to three skills.
>
>I did the same thing with Stewardship and the skills Administration, Law,
>and Knowledge (Nobility).

I was thinking of it more in terms of an ability to "spin" a situation,
thus affecting Agitate, and manipulate people`s perception of a situation
in such a way as to undermine the authority of a ruler in favor of oneself,
kind of like Contest.

In any case, those three are a bit different from what I have in
mind. Administration I haven`t really figured out how I want to handle
yet, but I think it`s quite different from the politics skill I`m talking
about. Law is a bit of a toughie, but I`m picturing that having to do with
a couple of other domain actions, mostly interacting with the Law
holding. Knowledge, nobility (or any of the knowledge skills) generally
reserved for information purposes only, though there are a few notable
"hands on" uses for knowledge skills from time to time. The combination of
those could, I guess, replicate a Politics skill, but having a single skill
just seems cleaner and more useable.

Gary

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[Magian]

A politics skill is very general especially if you want to apply it to game
mechanics and not wanting to leave any aspect of it out.

>
>I was thinking of it more in terms of an ability to "spin" a situation,
>thus affecting Agitate, and manipulate people`s perception of a situation
>in such a way as to undermine the authority of a ruler in favor of oneself,
>kind of like Contest.
>

The skill of spin and manipulating peoples perception of a situation really
have little to do with politics unless the knowledge and subject of what you
are trying to spin is political in scope. These skills are communication
skills under persuation, debate, and rhetoric.

The temple aspect of the agitate encompasses the dogma of the church which
is basically church politics. However politics was not really considered a
science the way it is today because of lack of data and studies and perhaps
interest thus politics as a skill in itself is as you said a vague approach.
Even in political science so many skills are drawn upon to make up what it
is that itself alone really isn`t anything but personal opinion and
philosophical conjecture.

Today there are so many things a person could do in politics but in the
setting we have in campaign terms things were much more limited on the
domain scale. I suggest Niccolo Machiavelli as a milestone to politics in
this setting and a good source to base any materials of politics anyone
would like to incorporate to the game.

As for adventuring, well isn`t the party leader already drawing upon his
political skills in every adventure in every D&D game already? Politics
really isn`t a definitive entity but we use it everywhere through
combinations of skills, or non-skills for those who are not politically
motivated.

>In any case, those three are a bit different from what I have in
>mind. Administration I haven`t really figured out how I want to handle
>yet, but I think it`s quite different from the politics skill I`m talking
>about. Law is a bit of a toughie, but I`m picturing that having to do with
>a couple of other domain actions, mostly interacting with the Law
>holding.

Again politics regarding law itself is very philosophical or religious
depending on the form of government.


>Knowledge, nobility (or any of the knowledge skills) generally
>reserved for information purposes only, though there are a few notable
>"hands on" uses for knowledge skills from time to time. The combination of
>those could, I guess, replicate a Politics skill, but having a single skill
>just seems cleaner and more useable.
>
>Gary
>

I understand that politics would be an easy catch all however I (perhaps a
little philosophical myself on this subject) think that politics really
draws upon other skills and is not in itself a skill. A knowledge of, as
has been mentioned, certain political structures could be a politic skill
and the knowledge thereof could be measured with a skill check. The
administrative would fall under administration because not all politically
skilled persons are good at administration. Law would be under law cause
not all politically skilled persons are good lawyers. Spin would fall under
a communications skill and be modified by charisma because not all
politically skilled persons are good at persuading others or even making
much change. Another aspect of politics is ambition but that is not a skill
rather a personality trait thus guiding the type of politician one is.

ciao,

Paul

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[kgauck]

It sounds more like what I called the Oratory skill (and a rose by any other
name ...). The Oratory skill is designed for addressing groups, rather than
interacting with individuals. You might use it to address a crowd, a
meeting of the Estates, the Imperial Senate, an assembly of congregants at
the Temple of Haelyn on a feast day, and so forth.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Trithemius]

Quoting Kenneth Gauck <kgauck@MCHSI.COM>:

> It sounds more like what I called the Oratory skill (and a rose by any
> other name ...). The Oratory skill is designed for addressing groups, rather
> than interacting with individuals. You might use it to address a crowd, a
> meeting of the Estates, the Imperial Senate, an assembly of congregants
> at the Temple of Haelyn on a feast day, and so forth.

I personally would be inclined to see this the Oratory skill as a sub-skill of
the Perform skill. It could be argued that this improves the value of the
Perform skill, but I would say by way of a reply that the Perform skill is not
exactly super-powerful to begin with. I would certainly permit a PC to take (or
construct an NPC with) a Perform style named `Oratory`. I would also permit an
(N)PC to take `Ritual`, "Sermon`, `Card-Dealing`, or any of a number of
disparate `performance` skills. Backed up by appropriate Knowledges (perhaps
these might even grant synergy bonuses to certain performance style checks) I
think that a greater variety of Perfom styles is a good alternative to
expanding the number of skills.

P.S. Sorry for being rather uncommunicative lately folks, I have had yet more
connectivity issues.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
(ICQ: 16537985)
-----------------------------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
-----------------------------------------------------
- Athanasius Kircher, `The Great Art of Knowledge`.

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Machin" <trithemius@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 1:27 AM


> I personally would be inclined to see this the Oratory skill as a
sub-skill of
> the Perform skill.

I am inconsistant in ascribing it either to its own skill, or as a Perform
skill. If I had to settle on one nomenclature, I`d probabaly call it
Perform (Oratory), and make it a class skill for Clerics and Paladins. At
the same time I`d probabaly take Diplomacy away, and restore it only to
those sects which get it as a bonus or a required proficency in the BoP.

> P.S. Sorry for being rather uncommunicative lately folks, I have had yet
more
> connectivity issues.

Glad to see you back in the ether.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Birthright-L]

Kenneth Gauck <kgauck@MCHSI.COM> wrote at 02-07-01 09.17:

> I am inconsistant in ascribing it either to its own skill, or as a Perform
> skill. If I had to settle on one nomenclature, I`d probabaly call it
> Perform (Oratory), and make it a class skill for Clerics and Paladins. At
> the same time I`d probabaly take Diplomacy away, and restore it only to
> those sects which get it as a bonus or a required proficency in the BoP.

The problem with this is that the different areas of the Perform skill are
not separate skills - you get one area of performance for each rank you take
in the perform skill. Of course, that can be changed, too. Everything can be
changed.

And that is the problem with this entire discussion - you are going too far
away from the Core 3E rules. If we want to make our own d20 rules set for
Birthright, we isolate ourselves in an ivory tower away from all the
Dungeons and Dragons players. The Politics debate is just one example of
this.

I`m not going so far as to say that we should merge the Birhtright gods with
the gods from the PH, but I think we should avoid messing with core
mechanics, like the skills. It is better to invent new uses of old skills.
And, in the case of Politics, this is clearly an aspect of the Diplomacy
skill.

So, you say, most classes lack Diplomacy. But skill access can be a partr of
whatever mechanism you use to separate blooded and unblooded characters. It
is better to adapt rules in this way, than to write your entirely new set of
rules - because diverging rules makes your game indecipherable to others.



/Carl

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[Trithemius]

Quoting Kenneth Gauck <kgauck@MCHSI.COM>:

> I am inconsistant in ascribing it either to its own skill, or as a
> Perform skill. If I had to settle on one nomenclature, I`d probabaly call it
> Perform (Oratory), and make it a class skill for Clerics and Paladins.
> At the same time I`d probabaly take Diplomacy away, and restore it only to
> those sects which get it as a bonus or a required proficency in the
> BoP.

That works well.
I might be inclined to leave paladins with Diplomacy though. I would imagine
that they need to talk through things at least as often as they need to stir up
crowds.

> Glad to see you back in the ether.

I am just trying to avoid phlogiston at the moment :)

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
(ICQ: 16537985)
-----------------------------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
-----------------------------------------------------
- Athanasius Kircher, `The Great Art of Knowledge`.

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[Trithemius]

Quoting Carl Cramér <carl.cramer@HOME.SE>:

> The problem with this is that the different areas of the Perform skill
> are not separate skills - you get one area of performance for each rank you
> take in the perform skill. Of course, that can be changed, too. Everything
> can be changed.

I do not see how this is a problem.

> And that is the problem with this entire discussion - you are going too
> far away from the Core 3E rules. If we want to make our own d20 rules set
> for Birthright, we isolate ourselves in an ivory tower away from all the
> Dungeons and Dragons players. The Politics debate is just one example
> of this.

Well, I am not sure that we have to remain `generic` to be honest, but I since
no real problem with the Perform skill currently, nor any problem with allowing
all sorts of uses for the Perform skill (from conducting magical ceremonies, to
dancing, to (as one of my co-players puts it) "luuuuurve-making") I am not sure
of the need to radically alter the skill system. My main alteration would be
granting increasing synergy bonuses (which Gary and I discussed on-list a while
ago), and having more of them (particularly for Knowledge skills).

> I`m not going so far as to say that we should merge the Birhtright gods
> with the gods from the PH, but I think we should avoid messing with core
> mechanics, like the skills. It is better to invent new uses of old
> skills. And, in the case of Politics, this is clearly an aspect of the
> Diplomacy skill.

Negotiation makes us of (depending on the moment and the negotiators styles)
Bluff, Sense Motive, Innuendo, Intimidation, AND Diplomacy. I would say that a
Knowledge (Politics) skill would offer a synergy to political negotiations (but
not to negotiations over who takes which watch at night), but I would not make
a single skill and let it preside over such a complex thing as a political
discussion, especially in a game like Birthright where politics is so
important. I would like my master negotiator lieutenant (who has maxed out all
of the mentioned skills, and has lots of appropriate skill-buffing feats) to be
somewhat more capable than the average fellow with maxed out Diplomacy ranks.
The other fellow might be able to talk politely in the normal fashion, but my
master negotiator can lie, threaten, haggle, or charm his way through, as well
as conduct the traditional stately discourse.

Alternatively, the fact that I am a student of politics has made me place too
much importance on my own discipline :)

> So, you say, most classes lack Diplomacy. But skill access can be a
> partr of whatever mechanism you use to separate blooded and unblooded
> characters. It is better to adapt rules in this way, than to write your
> entirely new set of rules - because diverging rules makes your game
> indecipherable to others.

I believe that I would have to redefine the uses of a lot of skills, including
my expanded uses of Perform, Profession, and Knowledge skills and my division
of Spellcraft into Theurgy, Magery, and Sorcery, but I do not think that this
would mean that an regular D&D player would be alienated from my BR campaigns.
He/she would probably have to the read page or so of changes that I have made,
but I think that is no different for any campaign setting. So long as there are
no changes of a Harn d20 magnitude I don`t think there are any problems with
some fiddling around.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
(ICQ: 16537985)
-----------------------------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
-----------------------------------------------------
- Athanasius Kircher, `The Great Art of Knowledge`.

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