Blackguards

[Midnight]

Blackguards, Should they be part of Birthright? If so, should they be able to have temple holdings and what god are they too the cold-rider? Realm spells should they have them?-- they do have divine spells. Because contacting a outside devil/demon doesn’t hold the same sway in Birthright perhaps the Cold-Rider or other evils from the shadow world would be better for there requirement of making peaceful contact with an evil outsider, or maybe the Hand of Azrai in the Gorgons Crown. Any one have any thoughts?

As a extra little fluff Im currently playing a five-peak goblin in birthright along with several other people and its been a lot of fun as diffrent provincial rulers die or get ousted, Im on my third char and about to try and take a level of Blackguard if I live long enough. Also I do recomend for a lot of fun try playing regents in the five-peaks and give in to your evil side.

[kgauck]

The Blackguard is a kind of anti-paladin, so we should presume that we're starting with a paladin. And here I don't mean a holy champion, because the Blackguard is a classical paladin gone bad. So we're probabaly starting with a paladin of Haelyn, Cuiraecen, and Avani. I think the warrior nature of Haelyn and Cuiraecen can suggest that Belinik as seduced them, and build the blackguard as a champion of Belinik over a seduced H or C paladin. Avani's sun nature is warm and learned, rather opposite from Kriersha's cold and brutal nature. So again, a Kriesha build over a seduced Avani build.

For the other champions, some other dark power is probabaly the best opposition force, and the Shadow World may well contain more than just the Cold Rider to offer power. The classic witch, people who've made pacts with dark powers, and people who've stumbled on forbidden knowledge can all be handled with greater SW powers who are less than proper dieties. After all, a blackguard, like a paladin, has a truncated spell list.

Sure, ultimatly it may all go back to the Cold Rider, but its also possible to add more flavor by producing variable corruptions suited to the priest or paladin being seduced (prey on their strengths and turn them dark) rather than having the undifferentiated dark power.

[Midnight]

I like your shadow world idea of using your creativity before going stright to the cold rider there should be a whole host of other beings of power in the shadow world, but i disigree that a blackguard is just a fallen paladin turned bad. A Paladin and a Blackguard are very simular in the sence that a paladin does good for the sake of good, where a Blackguard does evil just to be evil. The evil powers that be do reward fallen paladins but you don't ever need to have been one to embrace "true evil."

I think you also brought up a good point with the witchs, adding a coven of witchs or cult that deal with the vile things that in the shadow world could add a fun darker raven loftish adventure or event.

[Midnight]

when a Paladin of good does fall going to the polar opposite seems like what should happen thanks for puting that together kgauck.

[Sinister]

when a Paladin of good does fall going to the polar opposite seems like what should happen thanks for puting that together kgauck.

Just remember that in birthright serving "just good" doesn't happen. Religion is a big part of the experience.

[Lee]

In a message dated 12/8/2007 9:43:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET writes:

Blackguards, Should they be part of Birthright? If so, should they be able to have temple holdings and what god are they too the cold-rider? Realm spells should they have them?-- they do have divine spells. Because contacting a outside devil/demon doesn’t hold the same sway in Birthright perhaps the Cold-Rider or other evils from the shadow world would be better for there requirement of making peaceful contact with an evil outsider, or maybe the Hand of Azrai in the Gorgons Crown. Any one have any thoughts?


I`d rather see this as an unique individual, along the lines mentioned earlier, a paladin turned to Belinik or Karesha.

Lee.

[Sinister]

Are paladin spells and realms spell clearly defined? I can't even see that they have realm spells? What about battle spells? I guess the role of the paladin should be well defined first then address the blackguard.

I'd rather not see the blackguard as written but rather evil paladins of Gorgon, Belnik, etc... done along the lines of the optional paladin classes in the wiki.

[Midnight]

Well if a Paladin doen't get realm spells than neither should a Blackguard, in the Birthright play test they don't say any where that a paladin has realm spells but the requirement for Priest realm spells are cleric level and temple level. I think Paladins should have realm spells as their abilitys work the same as a cleric of a lower level I don't see any reason that a 9th level Paladin with a temple holding can't bless a unit.
And if we agree that a Paladin can have realm spells then it seems only right that so to should a Blackguard.
A problem with having a Blackguard as an evil Paladin of the Gorgon or Belnik is that they would have to first be a 6th level fighter or an even higher level cleric and don't match well with a stright Paladin of Haelyn or Cuiraecen. It would be better to have a new class other than a Blackguard or even better let there be a Paladin class for all the major gods with small difrence's
Clerics of Haelyn are not all ways good they only need to be lawfull perhaps Paladins of Haelyn have smite chaos instead of smite good and need only be lawfull as a requirement.
Cuiraecen could be the same as the phb, Belnik requirements would be you must be evil and have smite good but are other wise the same as phb Paladins.

[geeman]

At 06:05 PM 12/8/2007, Midnight wrote:

>Blackguards, Should they be part of Birthright?

Personally, I don`t see why not... but in the past I`ve argued that paladins are really portrayed better in BR by turning it into a prestige class and I`ve also been a big proponent of expanding the list of gods of "holy warriors" to include just about all the gods in one form or another, so in that context the idea of Blackguards isn`t that much of a leap. In fact, in that context including Blackguards fits in pretty neatly.

>If so, should they be able to have temple holdings and what god are they too the cold-rider?

BR paladins are dedicated to one of the existing gods, so the most easily justified way of including them would be to simply have them
dedicated to one of the evil BR gods; Belenik or Kreisha. Again, I don`t see any particular reason why one couldn`t extend the concept in the same what that (I think) the paladin itself should be extended, but I imagine that a BR "purist" would argue that there can be no BR Blackguards for much the same reason. That is, there can be only paladins dedicated to a set group of the gods, and extending the concept to the evil gods violates that basic stricture.

>Realm spells should they have them?-- they do have divine spells.

I see realm spells as an extension of standard magic, cast in a ritualized fashion over the course of a month (an action at the domain level) with the energies stored in the power of a source until released into a wide-ranging effect that can influence entire provinces... so, again, no I don`t see any reason why they shouldn`t have realm spells if they have the appropriate standard spell upon which the realm spell is based. However, that interpretation of realm spells is an elaboration and invention on my part. Only wizards and priests in BR have access to realm spells, so someone sticking to that standard would disagree.

>Because contacting a outside devil/demon doesn`t hold the same sway in Birthright perhaps the Cold-Rider or other evils from the shadow
>world would be better for there requirement of making peaceful contact with an evil outsider, or maybe the Hand of Azrai in the Gorgons Crown. Any one have any thoughts?

There are any number of ways of dealing with that requirement, but the SW is an apt a place as any. One could make the "contact" a
simple (not easy) ritual dedicating the fallen paladin to his new faith, a sort of anti-quest, or something along those lines and I don`t think it`d lose any particular credibility.

Gary

[Midnight]

what i'll do is write up a draft for a better suited birthright Paladin good and evil and post it in a new thread and we can modify it from peoples ideas from there, im kindy busy with the end of school but feel confident to have it done in a day or two.