Rheulgard

[Magnus Argent]

I don't mean to derail this thread, but... where is this AWESOME map coming from? Is it your own creation? Care to share it?

I created it on Inkarnate. Feel free to copy, clone, edit, use, or ignore, as desired.

Map of Rheulgard by me.

I'm not a professional cartographer or graphic designer (clearly) but feel free to PM me if you'd like to request a free map of a particular Birthright realm or region.

[Magnus Argent]

I found this in Twilight Peaks. Perhaps this was the basis for the history if it wasn't canon.

https://twilightpeaks.net/forum/index.php?topic=1422.0

"The Tarvan Waste lies east of Irbouda, ...
It is in this inhospitable land that the hardiest and most backward of Khinasi nomads eke out a living. Save for the city-state of Sefra, which ruled over the northwestern steppe and the woodlands beyond it (including some provinces now counted as part of Rheulgard), the land has never felt the touch of civilization. Not even el-Arrasi’s attempts to harness the marshlands of the middle Zhaïnge amounted to much in the long run, and Sefra was destroyed by Vos raiders in 1075 HC. Today three primary groups eke out a living here. To the south the gnolls of the Yezdaga inhabit the Tarvanian Hills, just like they do in Irbouda. To the east the Uigher tribes make up the largest human population of the Waste. The Uigher’s are traditional Khinasi nomads, fierce, hardy, and devoted to Avani. To the north and west the Kharnegui tribes still linger, including some bloodlines that are more Vos than Khinasi. "

Sorontar

Yes, the "Kharnegui tribe" was made up for that pbp campaign. It was probably used to explain the "Carnegui Resolution", a historical event used as an example of the Sphinx' negotiating tactics. AFAIK, the city-state of Sefra was also made up for that campaign.

Canon only names a single individual with Vos blood in the area -- a Vos Fighter/Druid (I think) who lives in the realm of the Sphinx.

That said, I freely admit that there could be a passage I missed in one of the sourcebooks somewhere. That's why I was asking where the info is coming from. But, if the only place it is mentioned is twilightpeaks, that certainly doesn't make it canon.

[Magnus Argent]

Sorry, I should correct a misstatement I made in my previous post. Canon-wise, the Kharneghui clan did indeed exist. They once ruled over a portion of the Tarvan Wastes.
They were based out of old Irbouda and when the Sphinx rose to power, they fell.

Nothing about the old realm of Sefra is canon.

In my personal opinion, people should not be allowed to use this site to present information relevant only to a private campaign. Which is why I have a problem with the Birthright Wiki allowing pure fiction to be presented without anything flagging it as such. Visitors to this site can't rely on the info they find there, which is an absolute shame.

[masterdaorin]

Nothing about the old realm of Sefra is canon.

That is wholly inaccurate.

CotS, page 26, q.v.

In my personal opinion, people should not be allowed to use this site to present information relevant only to a private campaign. Which is why I have a problem with the Birthright Wiki allowing pure fiction to be presented without anything flagging it as such. Visitors to this site can't rely on the info they find there, which is an absolute shame.

What else is this site used for? I thought it was to share ideas and help each other with our Birthright games?

[masterdaorin]

Whaaat? El-Sefra is a single province in the Tarvaan Wastes. I've never heard of a historical realm called Serfa. The only official entity that I know of who once ruled over the region was a clan from the old realm of Irbouda but the Sphinx subjugated them long ago. Where are you getting your information from? Honestly, it seems like this is a made-up backstory for someone's pbp campaign.

See my post above.

There are no Vos who raided or stayed in the Tarvan Waste. Medec was overrun by the Vos. Could be from Molochev. Could be from Ust Atka. OR Medec could have been invaded by Vos who once lived in Kal Kalathor. We know the goblin kingdom was not always as expansive as it is today (pg 7 TotHW). It doesn't make sense that the Vos settled in Molochev and in Ust Atka but not in the land in between. It does make sense that they settled that land and later discovered a goblin kingdom beneath them, giving them incentive to move elsewhere.. like, say, Medec.

Again, see my post above. The Vos raided into the Tarvan Waste. They pillaged Sefra, and took away many slaves.

But, the question of where those Vos came from is up for debate - because it's not clear. Most likely Molochev, I agree, but it's not clear.

What really doesn't make sense is for a great goblin nation to sit around for centuries not doing anything about a group of humans sitting directly above them. Because, you know, the Vos where there since Deismaar, but the goblins were there for thousands of years before that...

There's nothing to say that the Vos of Kozlovnyy didn't originally come from Molochev. But there's nothing to say they didn't come from an unnamed land that is know a part of Kal Kalathor. Personally, I find the notion that they came from the Kal Kalathor region to be the more likely of those two scenarios.

I agree, except for the latter. However, it is possible. And, it sure would be nice to know for sure... that is what this site is for, isn't it?

I disagree with all of the above. Was Molochev a "conquered territory"? Yes? Was it a "Brecht Nation"? Nope. I would encourage you to re-read page 6 of TotHW. It doesn't say "they began to settle the southern lands.:" It says "they set up camp on the shore of Lake Ladan." lol Two very different things. It goes on to say that they immediately began the process of dividing up the lands they conquered so far. Which means the issue hadn't been settled yet -- they likely left a few units in Molochev to act as occupying forces but the Brecht never invested those lands. The Battle of Lake Ladan literally started when they were in the process of trying to decide who gets what.

They were there for approximately 3 years. That doesn't say to me that they "were just passing through."

You better reread that passage again. It states, "... and the nobles among them met to divide up their newly gained southern Vos territories."

That says to me that they were staying, and had every intention of keeping said territory.

The timeline of Cerilia states that "The Brecht who survived the battle [of Lake Ladan] fled north and west". What's north and west of Lake Ladan? The Mistmoor. From the Mistmoor they fled into Rzhlev, where they split up and made for either Grevesmuhl or Berhagen.

History doesn't record it (meaning it's not in the official timeline of cerilia) but some of the Brecht fled south, into Kal Kalathor. But those who did were killed by goblin armies who had been commissioned by Uncle Basil. When the Vos of Molochev returned to reclaim their land, the few Brecht armies that were occupying Molochev fled into Berhagen.

Actually, history (i.e. canon) does record it - it's stated in TotHW that some Brecht fled south.

But, it also says that the goblins only hemmed the Brecht in before the Battle of Lake Ladan - the goblins didn't kill the Brecht forces fleeing from that debacle; the Vos did.

Point being: Molochev was occupied by Brecht armies between the years of 1137HC and 1140HC but were never invested and thus, they did not constitute a Brecht nation.

Now who's presenting personal opinion as fact?

[Magnus Argent]

See my post above.

If you recall, I did ask where you were getting your information from because. I went on to say "Clearly I am missing something that you're seeing."

The Vos raided into the Tarvan Waste. They pillaged Sefra, and took away many slaves.

Ok, great. But let's recall the context in which you originally presented this information. You stated that there are people in the Tarvan Wastes with mixed Khinasi/Vos heritage. Despite the fact that Serfa did, indeed, exist and the Vos did, indeed pillage it, there is no indication that they remained in the area. They were raiders, not settlers, correct?

What really doesn't make sense is for a great goblin nation to sit around for centuries not doing anything about a group of humans sitting directly above them. Because, you know, the Vos where there since Deismaar, but the goblins were there for thousands of years before that...

TotHW outright states that Kal Kalthor was not always as expansive as it is today. And they presumedly had heavy losses at Mt. Deismaar.

They were there for approximately 3 years. That doesn't say to me that they "were just passing through."

How do you figure 3 years?

You better reread that passage again. It states, "... and the nobles among them met to divide up their newly gained southern Vos territories."

I know it says that. In fact, I quoted that in an earlier post.

That says to me that they were staying, and had every intention of keeping said territory.

Yes, they met to divide up their newly-gained southern Vos territories.. which tells us that they had not previously done so. And, yes, it's reasonable to presume they had every intention of staying. But what happened next? What event occurred that interrupted their meeting..?

Actually, history (i.e. canon) does record it - it's stated in TotHW that some Brecht fled south.

Actually, according to canon, history does NOT record it. In fact, very few historians recall the goblin's part in the Battle of Lake Ladan. Look at the official Timeline of Cerilia. Where does IT say the Brecht forces fled?

But, it also says that the goblins only hemmed the Brecht in before the Battle of Lake Ladan - the goblins didn't kill the Brecht forces fleeing from that debacle; the Vos did.

I think you might be confusing events.. TotHW states that a few of the Brecht forces fled south from the frozen battlefield of Lake Ladan, acknowledging that this tidbit of information contradicts what historical records say ("historical records" being the official "Timeline of Cerilia", I think). But then it goes on to say that the goblins "rose up and slew the few Brecht troops that assembled on the southern shore."

So, those who fled "south" got as far as the shoreline. I don't see any indication that they fled further into Kal Kalthor much less back into Molochev.

Now who's presenting personal opinion as fact?

In this instance, I don't really think you're presenting personal opinion as fact. I just think you misunderstand what the facts are. Or, who knows, perhaps I do. For example, I see a passage in HotGB that states "after a few easily won victories, the Brecht mostly squabbled over the spoils and those they expected to gather after future battles." I also see that, as the eve of the Battle of Lake Ladan in 1140HC, the leaders of the Brecht forces were still arguing about the division of spoils. The only reason they stopped arguing is because Basil attacked them and the Battle of Lake Ladan ensued.

I don't see how any of that translates to a Brecht nation in Molochev. But maybe I missed a passage in the source material that states something to the effect of "The Brecht nobles invested the provinces of Molochev and remained there for three years where they created (a short-lived) Brecht nation."

Is that the case?