Rheulgard

[masterdaorin]

You are absolutely right. I will have to update my map to reflect this.

Interestingly, there is also a road leading to the capital of Molochev, implying that the someone, somewhere is trading with Molochev. Might well be the Bannalach Spoilers, who's to say?

Sure, absolutely. Just because the nobles and warriors are fighting, doesn't mean that the peasants necessarily care about borders.

I would also bet that Molochev uses that road for trade more than the Rheulgardians do.

I've always been of the opinion that Molochev would rather pick fights with their neighbors to the south, and of course always have to be on the look-out for their neighbors to the east. Rheulgard (and Berhagen) are more-likely after-thoughts for the Molochevians, when there is a lull between their usual enemies.

Rheulgard most-likely is more worried about raiders from the Tarvan Waste than elsewhere.

Another thing to remember, since it's relevant to roads, is that Molochev wasn't always a Vos realm. That's when the road was built, I'm sure of it...

[Magnus Argent]

Sure, absolutely. Just because the nobles and warriors are fighting, doesn't mean that the peasants necessarily care about borders.

I would also bet that Molochev uses that road for trade more than the Rheulgardians do.

I've always been of the opinion that Molochev would rather pick fights with their neighbors to the south, and of course always have to be on the look-out for their neighbors to the east. Rheulgard (and Berhagen) are more-likely after-thoughts for the Molochevians, when there is a lull between their usual enemies.

Rheulgard most-likely is more worried about raiders from the Tarvan Waste than elsewhere.

Another thing to remember, since it's relevant to roads, is that Molochev wasn't always a Vos realm. That's when the road was built, I'm sure of it...

Interesting. Out of curiosity, what gives you the impression that Molochev favors raiding to the south?

Also, are you saying that Molochev was once a Brecht, Khinasi, or Anurian realm or are you simply reminding us that it was once part of the elven empire that existed prior to humanity's arrival on Cerilia?

[masterdaorin]

Interesting. Out of curiosity, what gives you the impression that Molochev favors raiding to the south?

Also, are you saying that Molochev was once a Brecht, Khinasi, or Anurian realm or are you simply reminding us that it was once part of the elven empire that existed prior to humanity's arrival on Cerilia?

Various text within the TotHW.

I believe Molochev (or, at least, the northern part) was once a Brecht realm.

However, that's just speculation on my part, but the inference is there in the text. That road had to come from somewhere... and it doesn't make sense that a road was connected from Edlenna to the *new* capital of Siast when Drago took over.

The question remains - where did the Vos that now inhabit Kozlovnyy and Molochev come from? CotS implies they came from the Tarvan Waste... but, it's possible that there was another realm (probably centered around Kurmansk), which might have been the "original" Molochev...

As to your first question, the Vos hate each other more than any other race. They would fight the Kozlovs before anyone else, I reckon... though the goblins probably keep them busy more often than not...

If we knew where Basil came from, that might answer these questions definitively...

[Magnus Argent]

Various text within the TotHW.

I believe Molochev (or, at least, the northern part) was once a Brecht realm.

However, that's just speculation on my part, but the inference is there in the text. That road had to come from somewhere... and it doesn't make sense that a road was connected from Edlenna to the *new* capital of Siast when Drago took over.

The question remains - where did the Vos that now inhabit Kozlovnyy and Molochev come from? CotS implies they came from the Tarvan Waste... but, it's possible that there was another realm (probably centered around Kurmansk), which might have been the "original" Molochev...

As to your first question, the Vos hate each other more than any other race. They would fight the Kozlovs before anyone else, I reckon... though the goblins probably keep them busy more often than not...

If we knew where Basil came from, that might answer these questions definitively...

AFAIK, the Vos have nothing to do with the Tarvan Wastes and there's nothing to suggest that Molochev was ever Brecht.

For some reason, I've always had the impression that the Vos who conquered the lands known as Kozlovnyy once lived in lands that are today considered part of Kal Kalathor. I don't know if that impression was based on something I read in a sourcebook or if it's unique to my version of Cerilia.

[masterdaorin]

AFAIK, the Vos have nothing to do with the Tarvan Wastes and there's nothing to suggest that Molochev was ever Brecht.

For some reason, I've always had the impression that the Vos who conquered the lands known as Kozlovnyy once lived in lands that are today considered part of Kal Kalathor. I don't know if that impression was based on something I read in a sourcebook or if it's unique to my version of Cerilia.

Most likely because the Vos are seen as settling two areas of Cerilia, via the colonization maps on the back of the CR, one of which is around there...

However, it's not specifically clear...

What is known is that Kal Kalathor was much smaller back then at the time of Basil, and that Sviatol was not always the capital of Molochev. I suspect that the "old" Molochev was based around Kurmansk, and that it included some of the provinces in what are now Kal Kalathor.

Of course, I suspect that area has always been riddled with goblin bolt-holes, so the "southern Vos" probably always had to contend with native tribes of goblins.

[masterdaorin]

AFAIK, the Vos have nothing to do with the Tarvan Wastes and there's nothing to suggest that Molochev was ever Brecht.

That is not wholly accurate.

The Vos invaded the realm of Sefra, the land of present-day Tarvan Waste, from the north. They certainly pillaged it. I wouldn't be surprised if some stayed, and tried to rule their newly conquered territory. The nomads of the Waste are probably, at least partly, their descendants.

The Vos then invaded Medec. It's not clear where the Vos came from, but presumably from the "southern Vos" tribes, which today is Molochev. Since they do not like the Kozlovs, presumably either they are a break-away tribe from Molochev... or the Kozlovs are the descendants of the Vos that invaded and stayed in the Tarvan Waste...

Regarding Molochev itself: when the Free League began expanding, they came from the southwest. I would argue this was Rheulgard (makes sense - it's the only clear terrain to allow huge armies to move efficiently). When Basil convinced his tsarevos to give ground, they lost the territory of what is now Molochev. It became a conquered Brecht territory.

The Brecht began settling down in their newly acquired southern territories (TotHW, page 6). I would venture to argue that that is when the road through Molochev was built.

Granted, Molochev as a Brecht nation was short lived, but it was Brecht at one point...

[Magnus Argent]

That is not wholly accurate.

The Vos invaded the realm of Sefra, the land of present-day Tarvan Waste, from the north. They certainly pillaged it. I wouldn't be surprised if some stayed, and tried to rule their newly conquered territory. The nomads of the Waste are probably, at least partly, their descendants.

Whaaat? El-Sefra is a single province in the Tarvaan Wastes. I've never heard of a historical realm called Serfa. The only official entity that I know of who once ruled over the region was a clan from the old realm of Irbouda but the Sphinx subjugated them long ago. Where are you getting your information from? Honestly, it seems like this is a made-up backstory for someone's pbp campaign.

The Vos then invaded Medec. It's not clear where the Vos came from, but presumably from the "southern Vos" tribes, which today is Molochev. Since they do not like the Kozlovs, presumably either they are a break-away tribe from Molochev... or the Kozlovs are the descendants of the Vos that invaded and stayed in the Tarvan Waste...

There are no Vos who raided or stayed in the Tarvan Waste. Medec was overrun by the Vos. Could be from Molochev. Could be from Ust Atka. OR Medec could have been invaded by Vos who once lived in Kal Kalathor. We know the goblin kingdom was not always as expansive as it is today (pg 7 TotHW). It doesn't make sense that the Vos settled in Molochev and in Ust Atka but not in the land in between. It does make sense that they settled that land and later discovered a goblin kingdom beneath them, giving them incentive to move elsewhere.. like, say, Medec.

There's nothing to say that the Vos of Kozlovnyy didn't originally come from Molochev. But there's nothing to say they didn't come from an unnamed land that is know a part of Kal Kalathor. Personally, I find the notion that they came from the Kal Kalathor region to be the more likely of those two scenarios.

Regarding Molochev itself: when the Free League began expanding, they came from the southwest. I would argue this was Rheulgard (makes sense - it's the only clear terrain to allow huge armies to move efficiently). When Basil convinced his tsarevos to give ground, they lost the territory of what is now Molochev. It became a conquered Brecht territory.

I agree with all of the above.

The Brecht began settling down in their newly acquired southern territories (TotHW, page 6). I would venture to argue that that is when the road through Molochev was built.

Granted, Molochev as a Brecht nation was short lived, but it was Brecht at one point...

I disagree with all of the above. Was Molochev a "conquered territory"? Yes? Was it a "Brecht Nation"? Nope. I would encourage you to re-read page 6 of TotHW. It doesn't say "they began to settle the southern lands.:" It says "they set up camp on the shore of Lake Ladan." lol Two very different things. It goes on to say that they immediately began the process of dividing up the lands they conquered so far. Which means the issue hadn't been settled yet -- they likely left a few units in Molochev to act as occupying forces but the Brecht never invested those lands. The Battle of Lake Ladan literally started when they were in the process of trying to decide who gets what.

The timeline of Cerilia states that "The Brecht who survived the battle [of Lake Ladan] fled north and west". What's north and west of Lake Ladan? The Mistmoor. From the Mistmoor they fled into Rzhlev, where they split up and made for either Grevesmuhl or Berhagen.

History doesn't record it (meaning it's not in the official timeline of cerilia) but some of the Brecht fled south, into Kal Kalathor. But those who did were killed by goblin armies who had been commissioned by Uncle Basil. When the Vos of Molochev returned to reclaim their land, the few Brecht armies that were occupying Molochev fled into Berhagen.

Point being: Molochev was occupied by Brecht armies between the years of 1137HC and 1140HC but were never invested and thus, they did not constitute a Brecht nation.

Is it possible that a road was built during that time? Sure. Is it possible that it was built prior to or after that time? Sure, sure.

[Delazar]

I don't mean to derail this thread, but... where is this AWESOME map coming from? Is it your own creation? Care to share it?

[Delazar]

Kind of like this:

this looks like something done in Roll20? That map is really good-looking. Would it be possible to share it?

[Sorontar]

Whaaat? El-Sefra is a single province in the Tarvaan Wastes. I've never heard of a historical realm called Serfa. The only official entity that I know of who once ruled over the region was a clan from the old realm of Irbouda but the Sphinx subjugated them long ago. Where are you getting your information from? Honestly, it seems like this is a made-up backstory for someone's pbp campaign.

I found this in Twilight Peaks. Perhaps this was the basis for the history if it wasn't canon.

https://twilightpeaks.net/forum/index.php?topic=1422.0

"The Tarvan Waste lies east of Irbouda, ...
It is in this inhospitable land that the hardiest and most backward of Khinasi nomads eke out a living. Save for the city-state of Sefra, which ruled over the northwestern steppe and the woodlands beyond it (including some provinces now counted as part of Rheulgard), the land has never felt the touch of civilization. Not even el-Arrasi’s attempts to harness the marshlands of the middle Zhaïnge amounted to much in the long run, and Sefra was destroyed by Vos raiders in 1075 HC. Today three primary groups eke out a living here. To the south the gnolls of the Yezdaga inhabit the Tarvanian Hills, just like they do in Irbouda. To the east the Uigher tribes make up the largest human population of the Waste. The Uigher’s are traditional Khinasi nomads, fierce, hardy, and devoted to Avani. To the north and west the Kharnegui tribes still linger, including some bloodlines that are more Vos than Khinasi. "

Sorontar